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[Music]

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this hope radio for the masses headliner

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between July 8 1947 the Army Air Forces

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- ops and applying this - found and is

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now in the possession of the army we

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change the game

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GameChanger I occasionally think how

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quickly our differences worldwide would

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vanish if we were facing an alien threat

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this is fade to black with your host

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Jimmy Church on the game changer radio

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your help to get to the year nineteen

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eighty-five

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[Music]

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with Jimmy jealous on the game-changing

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network all right

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the spoke radio for the masses yeah how

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you doing today's Tuesday July 23rd 2019

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203 days into the new year just 162 days

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left

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[Music]

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we are live from a bunker somewhere in

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the middle of beautiful downtown Burbank

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California and I would like to welcome

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everybody listening all around the world

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all across the United States hither and

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thither to and fro back and forth up and

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down east and west north and south far

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and near

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this is fade to black for kjc are the

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game changer network in kg ra the

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planets I am your host Jimmy Church what

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is rock and everybody how you doin

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what an amazing week on the show tonight

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very special guest author researcher

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reporter journalist Annie Jacobson she's

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here she's gonna join us to talk about

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her new book which is called surprise

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kill banish that's right the secret

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history of the CIA's paramilitary forces

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pmn we're also gonna talk about the

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storm area51 Facebook event which is now

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approaching two million people it is far

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past 1.9 million

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Annie Jacobson author researcher

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journalists reporter and we're gonna be

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talking about her new book it's called

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surprise kill vanish the secret history

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of the CIA paramilitary armies operators

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and assassins we're also going to

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discuss the storm area51 facebook event

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and I'm going also gonna go outside of

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the box a little bit and talk about what

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she does with television and he may not

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know about that she is a 2016 Pulitzer

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Prize finalist and the New York Times

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bestselling author of area 51 Operation

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Paperclip the Pentagon's brain

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phenomenon and of course the book were

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going to be talking about tonight

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surprise kill vanish she also writes and

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produces TV she graduated from st.

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Paul's School and a Princeton University

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and I say this every time or she served

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as captain of the Princeton women's

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varsity ice

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her website is Annie Jacobs and dot-com

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I'd like to welcome back to fade to

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black

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Annie Jacobsen Annie how are you thank

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you for having me it's so nice to be

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here again yes it is great to have you

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back and you know Annie let's let's just

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go right here first with the area 51

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stop and as this started to reach across

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the mainstream media and I thought you

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know that that surprised me just a bit

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but as I started to click on these

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articles it was you that the mainstream

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media reached out to for not only

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information but why this was a bad idea

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how is your media week been young lady

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it's been pretty crazy right my god I

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was driving along and I mean in a in an

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hour I had a you know the wired UK

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calling me and also a podcast in Japan

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and Fox News and NPR and it speaks to

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the global interest in area 51 I mean

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anything at all arises about that base

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and people want to know what's going on

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the I my comment about this last week

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and I just want I just want your opinion

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on this but up until the movie

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Independence Day area 51 was still very

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much a part of the conspiracy community

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right the rest of the world really

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didn't know much about it

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Independence Day with that famous scene

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right with Bill Pullman and I forget oh

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yeah yeah Reb horn when he says you know

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actually sir that's not completely

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accurate so that seemed suddenly area 51

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is now part of pop culture because of

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that movie and its success now we've got

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area 51 for real that was probably the

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beginning of a general public awareness

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right yes I mean the first I wrote my

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book in 2011 and I think you know it

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became very real for a lot of people

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that in as much that I interviewed 75

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men and women well 70 74 men and one

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woman who had lived and worked at the

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base and these were former CIA engineers

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spy pilots military operators you name

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it these were all real people that went

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on the record with their name and

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suddenly it was like oh wait a minute

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this is actually a real physical place

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and there's a lot of military and

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intelligence community partners out

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there working two years later President

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Obama said Erica Daphne won for the

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first time publicly from any official he

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being the top official but he mentioned

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it at a Kennedy awards ceremony Kennedy

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Center award ceremony and that is when

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the act was the first time in history

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that the actual name area 51 became

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Declassified when the president spoke of

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its 1.92 as of today the latest count I

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checked right before showtime it's

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approaching one point nine four million

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people wild that's crazy isn't it I mean

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you know what what's also interesting is

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that Bob Lazar who is of course the sort

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of origin story of UFOs and the area 51

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and I say origin story meaning he's the

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first public he's the first person to

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ask publicly spoken about it he went on

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Joe Rogan's podcast recently shortly

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after I did and I think the that the

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that brought a lot of this attention

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back in but of course specifically the

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Lazar because he had been so quiet for

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so many decades and also there had of

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course been that film and that is about

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him and that's on Netflix so you kind of

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have this whirlwind of a confluence of

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events dealing with area 51 coming back

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into everybody's mind and and and then

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this this started but you know it's wild

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to me that the Air Force made a comment

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about it because they have never done

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that

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they have always you know well the

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commander in chief spoke of area 51 the

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the Air Force did not and so you know

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it's it speaks to the times and I think

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it also speaks to the power of Facebook

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because my I continue to work with as I

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continue to write more books I work with

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people and the military and the

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intelligence community has sources and I

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know what a serious I they keep on

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Facebook because the ability that a

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facebook campaign has to incite people

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to do things is extremely troubling to

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the government

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I mean look no further than a place like

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India where you actually have people

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dying because they're told to do things

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on Facebook right right right and think

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of the Arab Spring you know and and all

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of these different significant events

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around the world that were propped up

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and supported and created from social

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media social media is not a joke now

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we're talking about London riot yes yes

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yes it's it's something that has to be

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taken very seriously and here we have

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two million people saying that they are

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going another two million saying that

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they're interested in another three and

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a half million that are invited I don't

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know what this number is going to be

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like come around September 20th but if

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we look at fractions here right you know

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we're talking about such a big number

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now now if you're talking about ten

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percent or five percent we're still

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talking about a couple of hundred

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thousand people showing up at area 51

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and now is that that is when the

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Pentagon has to take this serious on the

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flip side is area51 equipped for

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something like this they may be equipped

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for their you know the the RV that shows

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up with a half a dozen people in it that

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want to you know go and film that the

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camo dudes deal with that but if a

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couple hundred thousand people show up

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what's going to happen well I did my my

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theory is that it would never even come

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to that I mean the fact that it's being

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forecasted on Facebook is probably you

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know makes a lot of people that have to

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watch this kind of thing and monitor the

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potential for civil unrest because

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that's what would be called certainly or

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or is potentially if people are talking

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about storming a military base I mean

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that's not like that's not I just spent

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several days with NYPD with the chief

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seeing how policing works when you're

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dealing with large crowds and the event

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was the fourth of July I said there was

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a huge display of fireworks on the

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Brooklyn Bridge and I watched how the

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NYPD and the Joint Terrorism Task Force

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deal now with crowds and you know in the

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work in the day and age that we live

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where you have active shoot could have

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an active shooter like the Vegas

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situation or post event ie IDI like the

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ariana grande concert so that's local

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law enforcement and those are people

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those are people gathering for an event

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they had also talked about how there was

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a gate you know the gate gathering a

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couple days before that there had been

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five million people in the city they had

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thought it was going to be the number

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was going to be around some 1 million

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but again this is local law enforcement

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working with their you know federal

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partners like the FBI to you know crowd

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control to preemptively crowd control

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but this is not an organized this is not

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protesting in front of City Hall this is

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this is as it's being pitched it's

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called storming a military base and

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that's a very different rubric for them

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to think about but again they're not

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gonna get anywhere near it because

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you're the kind of surveillance there is

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not just around area 51 ground sensors

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to you know overhead surveillance but

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you know they will imagine people have

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no one lives that not how many people

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live in Las Vegas you know imagine

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people driving on the on the five

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freeway or whatever it is to get there

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right that that's that's how far out

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this is going to be watched the

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let's okay let's go to a worst-case

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scenario which is absolutely that ten

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thousand people right worst case are

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actually somehow getting past the

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security and are approaching the gate

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and which is not it's it's like wide

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open there it's not you know it's like

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you don't have guard towers and it's not

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like a prison this is out in the open

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desert but if that actually happened the

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government wouldn't wouldn't start

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shooting at its own citizens on American

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soil would they it wouldn't come to that

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there's so many places you know they're

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called calm plans like contingency plans

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that are scenarios that are run through

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like this and I and again back you have

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to back way out from that because no

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one's gonna be allowed to mass along you

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know any of those roads the

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extra-terrestrial Highway or anywhere

276
00:13:57,240 --> 00:13:56,050
else they're just not they're just not

277
00:14:00,330 --> 00:13:57,250
going to get to that point

278
00:14:03,090 --> 00:14:00,340
local law enforcement would step in long

279
00:14:06,630 --> 00:14:03,100
before that so and they'll of course

280
00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:06,640
have some kind of situation in place

281
00:14:11,670 --> 00:14:09,370
that is resolved on very legally but but

282
00:14:14,850 --> 00:14:11,680
no one will be allowed you know and I've

283
00:14:18,390 --> 00:14:14,860
been you know the main access to get to

284
00:14:20,550 --> 00:14:18,400
area 51 the way from what I understand

285
00:14:23,430 --> 00:14:20,560
that's not really obstructed by you know

286
00:14:24,930 --> 00:14:23,440
terrain that is impassable is through

287
00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:24,940
the Nevada Test Site that's how I've

288
00:14:29,510 --> 00:14:27,010
that's the closest I've come to it as a

289
00:14:32,790 --> 00:14:29,520
guest of some nuclear engineers and

290
00:14:35,190 --> 00:14:32,800
looked at the base from you know the

291
00:14:37,050 --> 00:14:35,200
hill be a wait you know oh that's where

292
00:14:39,590 --> 00:14:37,060
the base is you know where you're sort

293
00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:39,600
of standing an area what's called area

294
00:14:45,390 --> 00:14:42,850
ten near where the Sudan crater is in

295
00:14:49,250 --> 00:14:45,400
the Nevada Test Site and you can kind of

296
00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:49,260
see there but the you're talking about a

297
00:14:55,500 --> 00:14:53,170
large distance that no one is going to

298
00:15:00,480 --> 00:14:55,510
be able to get near and you know is

299
00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:00,490
anyone gonna fire on a crowd again you

300
00:15:05,700 --> 00:15:02,290
know it's been a long time since Kent

301
00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:05,710
State that's right given the nature

302
00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:08,690
given the I mean policing

303
00:15:20,350 --> 00:15:13,090
law enforcement is extraordinarily

304
00:15:23,740 --> 00:15:20,360
mindful of and sensitive to I think you

305
00:15:28,290 --> 00:15:23,750
know how they're perceived and that has

306
00:15:30,070 --> 00:15:28,300
to do with many of the sort of you know

307
00:15:31,870 --> 00:15:30,080
protests and things that have happened

308
00:15:33,370 --> 00:15:31,880
in the past few years at least month

309
00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:33,380
this is my experience again because I'm

310
00:15:38,530 --> 00:15:35,210
just working on some stuff about law

311
00:15:40,690 --> 00:15:38,540
enforcement and there they are not

312
00:15:43,150 --> 00:15:40,700
walking around like ostriches with their

313
00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:43,160
head in the sand they they're just as

314
00:15:48,250 --> 00:15:44,930
concerned with people's perception of

315
00:15:49,900 --> 00:15:48,260
them as they are with their behavior of

316
00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:49,910
course you have these aberrant horrible

317
00:15:58,300 --> 00:15:54,650
things with rogue cops you know behaving

318
00:15:59,830 --> 00:15:58,310
you know like criminals but for the most

319
00:16:02,050 --> 00:15:59,840
part I imagine that there's a big effort

320
00:16:04,270 --> 00:16:02,060
behind the scenes going onto this as the

321
00:16:09,820 --> 00:16:04,280
number gets bigger by the way it's it

322
00:16:12,940 --> 00:16:09,830
it's crazy I was doing some math last

323
00:16:18,610 --> 00:16:12,950
week who's like Thursday and I was

324
00:16:23,470 --> 00:16:18,620
checking it was about it was about 15

325
00:16:27,250 --> 00:16:23,480
people per second all right yeah I did a

326
00:16:31,690 --> 00:16:27,260
10 minute average it's about 15 people

327
00:16:33,070 --> 00:16:31,700
per second per second people liking

328
00:16:36,490 --> 00:16:33,080
something and liking the president's

329
00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:36,500
tweets you know well see now the that's

330
00:16:42,070 --> 00:16:38,930
a big question I mean the real question

331
00:16:45,670 --> 00:16:42,080
is how many people are clicking on going

332
00:16:49,450 --> 00:16:45,680
for grins right they're not serious and

333
00:16:52,810 --> 00:16:49,460
then how many are clicking on that and

334
00:16:57,579 --> 00:16:52,820
are absolutely making travel plans right

335
00:16:59,980 --> 00:16:57,589
that's the question yes but of course

336
00:17:04,120 --> 00:16:59,990
our federal government is able to

337
00:17:06,460 --> 00:17:04,130
monitor all of that like it or not you

338
00:17:08,740 --> 00:17:06,470
can just I'm sure of it I'm not even

339
00:17:11,319 --> 00:17:08,750
guessing there because the the the

340
00:17:13,870 --> 00:17:11,329
stakes are too high to have a situation

341
00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:13,880
like you just said like oh my god what

342
00:17:18,220 --> 00:17:15,890
if 10,000 people start running you know

343
00:17:20,980 --> 00:17:18,230
but the stakes are too high to start

344
00:17:22,569 --> 00:17:20,990
shooting at American citizens the stakes

345
00:17:25,509 --> 00:17:22,579
are too high to start tear gas

346
00:17:29,130 --> 00:17:25,519
American citizens Facebook is a

347
00:17:33,009 --> 00:17:29,140
dangerous platform

348
00:17:35,950 --> 00:17:33,019
the or Facebook can be an extraordinary

349
00:17:40,570 --> 00:17:35,960
dangerous platform that incites people

350
00:17:42,490 --> 00:17:40,580
to riot and you know create civil unrest

351
00:17:44,769 --> 00:17:42,500
scenarios that get way beyond anyone's

352
00:17:46,659 --> 00:17:44,779
control and that absolutely is not

353
00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:46,669
something that that that anyone wants to

354
00:17:52,350 --> 00:17:49,250
have happen out near a classified

355
00:17:55,259 --> 00:17:52,360
military base I spoke to a wolf McCarron

356
00:18:00,430 --> 00:17:55,269
last week and wolf was one of the

357
00:18:02,590 --> 00:18:00,440
original area 51 guys back in the early

358
00:18:04,419 --> 00:18:02,600
90s out there taping you know without

359
00:18:09,039 --> 00:18:04,429
with all of the names right all the all

360
00:18:11,769 --> 00:18:09,049
the people and he had said that the

361
00:18:13,899 --> 00:18:11,779
easiest thing to do it's not about

362
00:18:17,710 --> 00:18:13,909
security at the base and it's not even

363
00:18:20,259 --> 00:18:17,720
Rachel Nevada it's like way down but

364
00:18:23,350 --> 00:18:20,269
like by alamo right which is the next

365
00:18:26,259 --> 00:18:23,360
closest town you know real town is just

366
00:18:29,019 --> 00:18:26,269
closed off the freeway close it off and

367
00:18:31,090 --> 00:18:29,029
and that's it it would be a very simple

368
00:18:34,330 --> 00:18:31,100
thing to do just absolutely close down

369
00:18:37,629 --> 00:18:34,340
the freeway and nobody's getting in near

370
00:18:39,460 --> 00:18:37,639
the base yeah I mean there's there's

371
00:18:42,190 --> 00:18:39,470
many many many ways to do that I mean

372
00:18:44,259 --> 00:18:42,200
look you know think about every now and

373
00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:44,269
then a pilot from Nellis Air Force Base

374
00:18:51,029 --> 00:18:48,250
at Nellis Air Force range sort of

375
00:18:53,470 --> 00:18:51,039
inadvertently in quotes flies over

376
00:18:56,830 --> 00:18:53,480
restricted airspace of area 51 they get

377
00:18:59,620 --> 00:18:56,840
escorted out instantly and those fighter

378
00:19:02,620 --> 00:18:59,630
jets that escort them out just appear

379
00:19:07,120 --> 00:19:02,630
right I mean the contingencies are there

380
00:19:10,180 --> 00:19:07,130
always 24/7 the the reports that have

381
00:19:12,700 --> 00:19:10,190
been coming out lately and your book

382
00:19:16,210 --> 00:19:12,710
area 51 which which I have and it's

383
00:19:19,389 --> 00:19:16,220
excellent you suggested a couple of

384
00:19:23,500 --> 00:19:19,399
things when it came to what the UFO part

385
00:19:28,539 --> 00:19:23,510
of this maybe on the flip side lately

386
00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:28,549
we've got air for naval pilots talking

387
00:19:33,850 --> 00:19:30,770
about unidentified objects we've got all

388
00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:33,860
this the gimbal footage and these three

389
00:19:38,730 --> 00:19:35,650
videos that have popped up now

390
00:19:41,820 --> 00:19:38,740
in Trump mentioned with the Tucker

391
00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:41,830
Carlson the subject of UFOs the Senate

392
00:19:49,110 --> 00:19:45,490
was just briefed by the Navy on you APs

393
00:19:54,750 --> 00:19:49,120
and then this area 51 thing pops up is

394
00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:54,760
is this does this feel a little a little

395
00:20:00,570 --> 00:19:56,890
suspicious to you you know that all of

396
00:20:03,330 --> 00:20:00,580
this UFO talk in Fox and CNN and the BBC

397
00:20:06,210 --> 00:20:03,340
in the New York Times and our president

398
00:20:08,100 --> 00:20:06,220
the Senate Navy pilots all of this

399
00:20:14,820 --> 00:20:08,110
happening at the same time it seems

400
00:20:16,350 --> 00:20:14,830
almost agenda is well I mean I don't see

401
00:20:18,750 --> 00:20:16,360
it that way only because I just see it

402
00:20:21,860 --> 00:20:18,760
as events culminating right if you

403
00:20:23,610 --> 00:20:21,870
reverse engineer it from this this event

404
00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:23,620
then you just go

405
00:20:26,370 --> 00:20:24,850
well of course people are going to be

406
00:20:27,660 --> 00:20:26,380
interested in clicking you know crimp

407
00:20:30,060 --> 00:20:27,670
there's going to be 15 clicks every

408
00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:30,070
second to join because all you have to

409
00:20:33,870 --> 00:20:31,930
do is go back to the winter when the

410
00:20:36,300 --> 00:20:33,880
tic-tac footage was released and then

411
00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:36,310
you have you know the Pentagon admitting

412
00:20:40,830 --> 00:20:38,410
for the first time oh actually we do

413
00:20:44,490 --> 00:20:40,840
have a USO program an unidentified

414
00:20:46,830 --> 00:20:44,500
flying object program you know aircraft

415
00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:46,840
we can't identify our five Airmen have

416
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:50,170
seen I hate so then you have all the

417
00:20:53,850 --> 00:20:52,090
different things you mentioned so and

418
00:20:59,010 --> 00:20:53,860
this builds because people are

419
00:21:03,000 --> 00:20:59,020
interested and this is both hard science

420
00:21:05,340 --> 00:21:03,010
to some people in terms of experimental

421
00:21:09,210 --> 00:21:05,350
aircraft certainly to me and it's also

422
00:21:11,130 --> 00:21:09,220
narrative you know I want to say

423
00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:11,140
mythology I don't think conspiracy

424
00:21:16,890 --> 00:21:12,970
because I think it's more when I say

425
00:21:20,570 --> 00:21:16,900
myth I mean like archetype right because

426
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:20,580
I'm not someone who I'm not someone who

427
00:21:28,770 --> 00:21:26,170
who is a UFO believer but I certainly

428
00:21:31,350 --> 00:21:28,780
don't dismiss it or disparage it I think

429
00:21:33,990 --> 00:21:31,360
it's super interesting but I look at it

430
00:21:36,890 --> 00:21:34,000
as a narrative right I don't I my

431
00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:36,900
information takes me down the path of

432
00:21:42,810 --> 00:21:40,170
the history of area 51 that's had a UFO

433
00:21:49,700 --> 00:21:42,820
department since the 1950s when people

434
00:21:52,710 --> 00:21:49,710
are mistaking the u2 for a UFO

435
00:21:54,090 --> 00:21:52,720
one can always stand corrected right and

436
00:21:56,250 --> 00:21:54,100
because you have these two competing

437
00:21:58,260 --> 00:21:56,260
narratives and they really are competing

438
00:22:02,130 --> 00:21:58,270
narratives because many people

439
00:22:03,930 --> 00:22:02,140
disparaged either side right it becomes

440
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:03,940
super interesting to a lot of people and

441
00:22:07,919 --> 00:22:06,250
it's also a heck of a lot more

442
00:22:12,390 --> 00:22:07,929
interesting to talk about in politics

443
00:22:15,450 --> 00:22:12,400
because I do think people have more of

444
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:15,460
okay this is my position but right

445
00:22:20,549 --> 00:22:18,730
they really do I mean sure you get some

446
00:22:23,310 --> 00:22:20,559
curmudgeons I run into them all the time

447
00:22:26,190 --> 00:22:23,320
that like are you know fanatical in

448
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:26,200
their position and and and and you know

449
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:29,650
how are absolutely right but for the

450
00:22:34,980 --> 00:22:33,010
most part I think people are have a

451
00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:34,990
really strong position that they believe

452
00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:37,530
and then they remain really curious and

453
00:22:44,820 --> 00:22:40,450
want to know more and so therefore it's

454
00:22:48,390 --> 00:22:44,830
like why what a great topic I wanted to

455
00:22:52,409 --> 00:22:48,400
ask you this very specifically because

456
00:22:55,830 --> 00:22:52,419
with your research into skunk works and

457
00:22:59,220 --> 00:22:55,840
DARPA Paperclip and of course area 51

458
00:23:01,289 --> 00:22:59,230
that what these Navy pilots have been

459
00:23:03,659 --> 00:23:01,299
seeing and we have to depend on their

460
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:03,669
professionalism right we have to depend

461
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:07,450
on the rise with these craft that they

462
00:23:11,940 --> 00:23:09,010
were seeing in the way that they

463
00:23:14,970 --> 00:23:11,950
described the the the way that they flew

464
00:23:18,900 --> 00:23:14,980
and lack of propulsion could they have

465
00:23:21,510 --> 00:23:18,910
been witnessing some skunk work test

466
00:23:26,010 --> 00:23:21,520
projects some NASA test project some

467
00:23:28,020 --> 00:23:26,020
DARPA Sandia crazy a propulsion system

468
00:23:31,730 --> 00:23:28,030
and that it was just ours and had

469
00:23:36,419 --> 00:23:31,740
nothing to do with the UFO phenomenon I

470
00:23:39,510 --> 00:23:36,429
mean my position would be that's the

471
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:39,520
more likely scenario right but it but

472
00:23:43,169 --> 00:23:41,290
again I don't discount anything but like

473
00:23:46,500 --> 00:23:43,179
okay I'll give you an example I was just

474
00:23:49,940 --> 00:23:46,510
up at skunk works last month because I

475
00:23:52,980 --> 00:23:49,950
appear in as a talking head in a

476
00:23:54,900 --> 00:23:52,990
documentary about skunk works called

477
00:23:57,330 --> 00:23:54,910
secrets in the sky and it's all the

478
00:24:00,090 --> 00:23:57,340
different programs that despite playing

479
00:24:02,399 --> 00:24:00,100
programs that have gone on there and as

480
00:24:03,220 --> 00:24:02,409
part of that the premiere the movie

481
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:03,230
premiere was up

482
00:24:06,789 --> 00:24:04,850
gun [\h__\h] and you gotta take your phones

483
00:24:09,159 --> 00:24:06,799
away and as part of it they were like oh

484
00:24:13,120 --> 00:24:09,169
we're gonna show you we're gonna take

485
00:24:14,590 --> 00:24:13,130
you guys into the skunkworks where I had

486
00:24:17,259 --> 00:24:14,600
never been and most people are not

487
00:24:19,269 --> 00:24:17,269
allowed and you know they're these big

488
00:24:20,830 --> 00:24:19,279
giant barriers that are caught that you

489
00:24:22,990 --> 00:24:20,840
can't see behind certain things that are

490
00:24:25,060 --> 00:24:23,000
going on but a little bit of it was for

491
00:24:29,759 --> 00:24:25,070
show but they what they did show us was

492
00:24:33,850 --> 00:24:29,769
what they said was an unclassified new

493
00:24:35,830 --> 00:24:33,860
plane they're working on and I'm gonna

494
00:24:37,360 --> 00:24:35,840
I'm not totally precise here we're

495
00:24:39,009 --> 00:24:37,370
having a conversation so just bear with

496
00:24:41,019 --> 00:24:39,019
me the information is generally correct

497
00:24:44,259 --> 00:24:41,029
but don't quote me right it was like

498
00:24:47,610 --> 00:24:44,269
yeah they're working on a new claim it's

499
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:47,620
a 250 million dollar contract with NASA

500
00:24:54,490 --> 00:24:52,490
to learn how to fly a plane kind of like

501
00:24:55,509 --> 00:24:54,500
the Concorde was right but faster than

502
00:25:00,159 --> 00:24:55,519
the speed of sound but that's a

503
00:25:02,950 --> 00:25:00,169
commercial for commercial use and what

504
00:25:06,039 --> 00:25:02,960
they said is the reason they're working

505
00:25:07,269 --> 00:25:06,049
on this is because the reason it's there

506
00:25:10,060 --> 00:25:07,279
they're working on the unclassified

507
00:25:11,860 --> 00:25:10,070
program is because they have to there's

508
00:25:12,700 --> 00:25:11,870
some kind of a law and a fact and again

509
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:12,710
I don't have all the facts straight

510
00:25:16,870 --> 00:25:14,570
about you can't break that you can't

511
00:25:18,279 --> 00:25:16,880
have that sonic boom over cities anymore

512
00:25:19,659 --> 00:25:18,289
right right right

513
00:25:21,490 --> 00:25:19,669
Congress has something against it so

514
00:25:23,649 --> 00:25:21,500
they're they have to get around in there

515
00:25:27,250 --> 00:25:23,659
doing all this high-technology work this

516
00:25:30,759 --> 00:25:27,260
is what they said right to somehow

517
00:25:32,259 --> 00:25:30,769
change the noise breaking the sound

518
00:25:33,519 --> 00:25:32,269
barrier or do something something

519
00:25:35,500 --> 00:25:33,529
something something right you get the

520
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:35,510
idea right again this was just coming at

521
00:25:39,580 --> 00:25:37,250
me with no notebook I'm like information

522
00:25:43,180 --> 00:25:39,590
okay but the point me that was

523
00:25:47,950 --> 00:25:43,190
interesting was that's the 250 million

524
00:25:51,250 --> 00:25:47,960
dollar unclassified version I wonder

525
00:25:54,850 --> 00:25:51,260
what the classified version is right

526
00:25:56,230 --> 00:25:54,860
right and we we know from I know from

527
00:25:57,789 --> 00:25:56,240
writing all this history about area

528
00:25:59,860 --> 00:25:57,799
first one that's just a classic cover

529
00:26:01,870 --> 00:25:59,870
it's like oh that's why we're doing all

530
00:26:04,269 --> 00:26:01,880
this stuff that's why they we're working

531
00:26:07,360 --> 00:26:04,279
with a sound bear right because you need

532
00:26:10,299 --> 00:26:07,370
a cover story for everything these

533
00:26:14,379 --> 00:26:10,309
people start to wonder yes and you know

534
00:26:16,899 --> 00:26:14,389
that the SR 72 is is in the works and

535
00:26:21,519 --> 00:26:16,909
what you probably saw was

536
00:26:24,430 --> 00:26:21,529
the unclassified version of it I'm so

537
00:26:25,299 --> 00:26:24,440
jealous or its cousin exactly right

538
00:26:28,239 --> 00:26:25,309
right right

539
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:28,249
because speed is the new stealth because

540
00:26:33,609 --> 00:26:31,369
you know electronic warfare all of which

541
00:26:37,629 --> 00:26:33,619
or not all of which but so much of which

542
00:26:40,749 --> 00:26:37,639
is tested out at area 51 but electronic

543
00:26:42,580 --> 00:26:40,759
warfare is advancing at such a rate we

544
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:42,590
can't keep up with the measures and

545
00:26:47,589 --> 00:26:44,570
countermeasures of China and Russia and

546
00:26:51,129 --> 00:26:47,599
so on and so forth and so the it's fast

547
00:26:54,460 --> 00:26:51,139
as we can create stealthy new situations

548
00:26:56,830 --> 00:26:54,470
the enemy is creating ways to detect it

549
00:27:00,430 --> 00:26:56,840
food and the new electronic radar system

550
00:27:01,930 --> 00:27:00,440
and so that has made speed the new

551
00:27:05,139 --> 00:27:01,940
stealth because if something's flying

552
00:27:09,279 --> 00:27:05,149
fast enough you can't take it down I do

553
00:27:11,169 --> 00:27:09,289
you subscribe do you subscribe to you

554
00:27:15,729 --> 00:27:11,179
know the been rich quotes over the years

555
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:15,739
about skunk works that there 50 years

556
00:27:19,659 --> 00:27:17,450
ahead of anything that we know about

557
00:27:22,799 --> 00:27:19,669
currently do you get that vibe from

558
00:27:25,869 --> 00:27:22,809
skunk works if you were just there I

559
00:27:28,389 --> 00:27:25,879
don't know if he did he did rip say 50

560
00:27:30,339 --> 00:27:28,399
yeah I do believe yes that's what I mean

561
00:27:33,969 --> 00:27:30,349
you know my book on dark of the

562
00:27:36,310 --> 00:27:33,979
Pentagon's brain makes very clear that

563
00:27:37,239 --> 00:27:36,320
they are working on technology 25 years

564
00:27:40,989 --> 00:27:37,249
out because that's what their

565
00:27:45,369 --> 00:27:40,999
requirement is by Congress sure so I I

566
00:27:49,509 --> 00:27:45,379
don't know if it's 55 oh I am certain

567
00:27:52,629 --> 00:27:49,519
it's 25 but the 25 is always pushing

568
00:27:54,789 --> 00:27:52,639
forward you know and I so so somewhere

569
00:27:59,589 --> 00:27:54,799
between 25 and 50 but that's absolutely

570
00:28:01,330 --> 00:27:59,599
the name of the game is you know I mean

571
00:28:04,810 --> 00:28:01,340
another another interesting skunkworks

572
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:04,820
moment for me was when the f-117 was

573
00:28:11,529 --> 00:28:08,330
retired I think this was around I want

574
00:28:14,619 --> 00:28:11,539
to say 2010 right I went to the banquet

575
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:14,629
up at skunk works because several of the

576
00:28:20,529 --> 00:28:17,330
engineers in my area 51 book worked on

577
00:28:22,599 --> 00:28:20,539
that f-117 back to your question about

578
00:28:25,149 --> 00:28:22,609
future technology they were working on

579
00:28:27,669 --> 00:28:25,159
it back in 1977 when it was called the

580
00:28:29,390 --> 00:28:27,679
hopeless diamonds you know long before

581
00:28:31,970 --> 00:28:29,400
the half glue

582
00:28:34,010 --> 00:28:31,980
and so they had been part of this

583
00:28:36,620 --> 00:28:34,020
program for decades and then they

584
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:36,630
watched it fly in the Gulf War and then

585
00:28:41,090 --> 00:28:38,610
they watched it you know be put in the

586
00:28:44,060 --> 00:28:41,100
shed and what I thought was fascinating

587
00:28:45,830 --> 00:28:44,070
was that whoever it was that was that

588
00:28:47,150 --> 00:28:45,840
was speaking the president of skunk

589
00:28:49,370 --> 00:28:47,160
works for the president of Lockheed at

590
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:49,380
the time said something to the effect of

591
00:28:57,650 --> 00:28:52,770
my god we ran this program for decades

592
00:28:59,990 --> 00:28:57,660
to stay ahead by decades 10,000 people

593
00:29:04,370 --> 00:29:00,000
had top-secret clearances to work on it

594
00:29:06,140 --> 00:29:04,380
and there was not a single leak and that

595
00:29:08,090 --> 00:29:06,150
I thought was really really really

596
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:08,100
interesting when people talk about what

597
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:10,050
can you keep secret what can you give

598
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:13,890
all a [\h__\h] good no what can you keep

599
00:29:22,700 --> 00:29:20,330
right because so you can keep anything

600
00:29:24,260 --> 00:29:22,710
secret so again that narrative of people

601
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:24,270
who believe that the technology is

602
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:27,210
captured UFO UFOs and a lot of times the

603
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:29,010
naysayers say well that's impossible you

604
00:29:34,610 --> 00:29:31,050
couldn't keep that secret flyboy yes you

605
00:29:38,030 --> 00:29:34,620
can you can keep really big project

606
00:29:39,830 --> 00:29:38,040
secret project let's take our break

607
00:29:42,049 --> 00:29:39,840
right here our guest tonight

608
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:42,059
annie jacobson when we come back after

609
00:29:46,430 --> 00:29:44,970
this short break surprise kill vanish

610
00:29:49,750 --> 00:29:46,440
the secret history of the CIA

611
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:49,760
paramilitary armies operators and

612
00:29:55,490 --> 00:29:53,610
assassins her website is annie jacobson

613
00:29:57,830 --> 00:29:55,500
comm the links are over at Jimmy Church

614
00:29:59,290 --> 00:29:57,840
radio I'll be right back after this

615
00:30:10,350 --> 00:29:59,300
short break stay with us

616
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:19,580
[Music]

617
00:30:24,990 --> 00:30:22,570
welcome back fade to black follow me on

618
00:30:26,460 --> 00:30:25,000
twitter @ JT radio you can follow auntie

619
00:30:31,350 --> 00:30:26,470
we've got our links up right there at

620
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:31,360
any Jacobson on Twitter tomorrow night

621
00:30:36,540 --> 00:30:33,970
dr. Kenneth James is going to be here

622
00:30:38,820 --> 00:30:36,550
we're going to be talking Carl Jung do

623
00:30:41,130 --> 00:30:38,830
not miss tomorrow night tonight it's

624
00:30:43,140 --> 00:30:41,140
auntie Jacobson we're gonna be jumping

625
00:30:46,980 --> 00:30:43,150
into her book surprise kill vanish and

626
00:30:48,900 --> 00:30:46,990
this in the storm area 50 what what a

627
00:30:51,510 --> 00:30:48,910
great title for the book surprise kill

628
00:31:03,990 --> 00:30:51,520
vanish a storm area 51 that will be the

629
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:04,000
next book yes you mentioned earlier what

630
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:05,290
happened that's what happened to a

631
00:31:09,870 --> 00:31:06,850
million one point nine million people

632
00:31:11,700 --> 00:31:09,880
surprise kill and vanish well I I could

633
00:31:16,260 --> 00:31:11,710
see the press conference with President

634
00:31:20,010 --> 00:31:16,270
Trump after that the comment that you

635
00:31:22,980 --> 00:31:20,020
made earlier about UFOs that you're

636
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:22,990
interested in it but you're not quite on

637
00:31:29,790 --> 00:31:25,930
the believer side before we move forward

638
00:31:32,850 --> 00:31:29,800
let me suggest this one evening one

639
00:31:35,730 --> 00:31:32,860
evening in the future you need to come

640
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:35,740
out with us we have the latest in

641
00:31:43,830 --> 00:31:40,210
night-vision goggles and will go out and

642
00:31:46,980 --> 00:31:43,840
look at the night sky and I want your

643
00:31:49,350 --> 00:31:46,990
opinion on what is going on up there

644
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:49,360
because it is crazytown

645
00:31:55,590 --> 00:31:51,610
you know you got there with and and it's

646
00:31:58,760 --> 00:31:55,600
not Annie you need to imagine this for a

647
00:32:01,560 --> 00:31:58,770
second you look up with night vision and

648
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:01,570
no you look up before the night vision

649
00:32:05,670 --> 00:32:02,890
and you're looking at the Milky Way

650
00:32:08,130 --> 00:32:05,680
right it's a beautiful starry sky that

651
00:32:10,350 --> 00:32:08,140
you're used to seeing and then you know

652
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:10,360
nothing's moving and then you look

653
00:32:17,490 --> 00:32:12,730
through night vision and you're looking

654
00:32:20,670 --> 00:32:17,500
at stuff zigzagging turning appearing

655
00:32:22,410 --> 00:32:20,680
lighting up chasing each other and then

656
00:32:25,530 --> 00:32:22,420
you pull the night vision down and look

657
00:32:28,260 --> 00:32:25,540
at it there's nothing there and yeah

658
00:32:30,300 --> 00:32:28,270
this epiphany right you go back to the

659
00:32:31,379 --> 00:32:30,310
night vision and you just go holy cow

660
00:32:37,079 --> 00:32:31,389
what

661
00:32:40,049 --> 00:32:37,089
know moving east to west or west to east

662
00:32:42,719 --> 00:32:40,059
and you know in a straight line it's

663
00:32:46,649 --> 00:32:42,729
it's stuff up there I don't know if it's

664
00:32:48,149 --> 00:32:46,659
ours or et or whatever I don't know but

665
00:32:49,829 --> 00:32:48,159
it's something that's very hard to wrap

666
00:32:51,539 --> 00:32:49,839
your mind around and I would love your

667
00:32:54,509 --> 00:32:51,549
opinion you need to go and check it out

668
00:32:58,529 --> 00:32:54,519
one night I'll pick you up on one yeah

669
00:33:00,749 --> 00:32:58,539
yeah you hope in your next book for sure

670
00:33:04,529 --> 00:33:00,759
that'll get you a pill it's er that

671
00:33:07,190 --> 00:33:04,539
right there if you see the thing is when

672
00:33:10,829 --> 00:33:07,200
we have done that I will always

673
00:33:13,499 --> 00:33:10,839
inevitably have somebody there that says

674
00:33:15,049 --> 00:33:13,509
why isn't the mainstream media reporting

675
00:33:17,879 --> 00:33:15,059
on this it's one thing to talk about

676
00:33:20,249 --> 00:33:17,889
flashing lights or somebody has been

677
00:33:23,190 --> 00:33:20,259
abducted by a UFO they'll ignore that

678
00:33:25,019 --> 00:33:23,200
stuff we understand that but this is

679
00:33:27,149 --> 00:33:25,029
something that the mainstream media's

680
00:33:30,269 --> 00:33:27,159
should be asking questions about there

681
00:33:32,639 --> 00:33:30,279
must be a journalist out there that that

682
00:33:35,249 --> 00:33:32,649
would want these questions answered but

683
00:33:37,109 --> 00:33:35,259
it doesn't happen and it goes on every

684
00:33:40,319 --> 00:33:37,119
single night it's going on right now as

685
00:33:42,749 --> 00:33:40,329
you and I talked where did you get this

686
00:33:43,769 --> 00:33:42,759
vision goggles we we have our own

687
00:33:47,119 --> 00:33:43,779
company

688
00:33:50,399 --> 00:33:47,129
I have generation I have generation four

689
00:33:53,310 --> 00:33:50,409
and they're they're incredible same

690
00:33:55,829 --> 00:33:53,320
stuff that the military uses yeah yep

691
00:33:59,879 --> 00:33:55,839
yep yep they're about four grand five

692
00:34:01,919 --> 00:33:59,889
grand a pair it's the real deal and the

693
00:34:03,539 --> 00:34:01,929
really fun to use they're really fun and

694
00:34:05,239 --> 00:34:03,549
they're fun to use on your neighbors

695
00:34:08,669 --> 00:34:05,249
more on that later

696
00:34:11,069 --> 00:34:08,679
let's talk about the new book and the

697
00:34:13,049 --> 00:34:11,079
title of the book which is surprise kill

698
00:34:15,690 --> 00:34:13,059
vanish the secret history of CIA

699
00:34:18,559 --> 00:34:15,700
paramilitary armies operators and

700
00:34:19,829 --> 00:34:18,569
assassins sounds like an impossible

701
00:34:22,319 --> 00:34:19,839
project

702
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:22,329
it just sounds impossible where did the

703
00:34:29,940 --> 00:34:24,490
idea come from and how did you approach

704
00:34:31,859 --> 00:34:29,950
this kind of research it was a wild book

705
00:34:36,119 --> 00:34:31,869
to write I mean the people in this book

706
00:34:38,159 --> 00:34:36,129
were pretty remarkable and a lot of

707
00:34:38,909 --> 00:34:38,169
night vision glasses I mean they have

708
00:34:43,039 --> 00:34:38,919
them not me

709
00:34:44,490 --> 00:34:43,049
but I got the idea because I was um I

710
00:34:47,220 --> 00:34:44,500
had a

711
00:34:51,240 --> 00:34:47,230
an old colleague I used to report on

712
00:34:54,510 --> 00:34:51,250
Homeland Security and I was writing my

713
00:34:58,680 --> 00:34:54,520
area51 book and this fellow his first

714
00:35:00,690 --> 00:34:58,690
name was Brett he had gone off retired

715
00:35:02,730 --> 00:35:00,700
from Department of Homeland Security and

716
00:35:04,170 --> 00:35:02,740
gone off to the Middle East and he

717
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:04,180
couldn't tell me what he did and I

718
00:35:11,309 --> 00:35:06,970
didn't ask but he was on his way back

719
00:35:13,950 --> 00:35:11,319
and he came by the house and brought me

720
00:35:15,839 --> 00:35:13,960
a challenge coin and it said you know

721
00:35:17,910 --> 00:35:15,849
state US State Department Kabul

722
00:35:19,349 --> 00:35:17,920
Afghanistan and I thought that was

723
00:35:22,230 --> 00:35:19,359
interesting because nothing about him

724
00:35:25,079 --> 00:35:22,240
was diplomatic he used weapons trained

725
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:25,089
and military trained and at the time my

726
00:35:30,510 --> 00:35:27,130
boys were young and we had a lot of GI

727
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:30,520
Joes in the garden and you know from the

728
00:35:34,170 --> 00:35:32,530
American Revolution to the present and

729
00:35:35,700 --> 00:35:34,180
they all had weapons but they had the

730
00:35:38,460 --> 00:35:35,710
wrong weapons on the raw on the

731
00:35:40,079 --> 00:35:38,470
different GI Joes and he said he got

732
00:35:41,819 --> 00:35:40,089
these all wrong and showed them and kind

733
00:35:44,579 --> 00:35:41,829
of gave them a lesson the firearms

734
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:44,589
throughout you know history and they

735
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:47,410
were fascinated and he said if it's okay

736
00:35:53,069 --> 00:35:51,010
with your mom and dad um I I'll show you

737
00:35:56,099 --> 00:35:53,079
a couple real guns and how they are

738
00:35:58,109 --> 00:35:56,109
handled and I knew him to be a licensed

739
00:36:01,230 --> 00:35:58,119
weapon safety instructor so I said

740
00:36:05,130 --> 00:36:01,240
that's fine he sets up a sniper rifle in

741
00:36:06,839 --> 00:36:05,140
the dining room and through the scope I

742
00:36:08,220 --> 00:36:06,849
look I can I live up in the Hollywood

743
00:36:12,990 --> 00:36:08,230
Hills and through the scope I can see

744
00:36:18,140 --> 00:36:13,000
sort of a leaf the canyon across the

745
00:36:22,980 --> 00:36:18,150
canyon and I realized this is what my

746
00:36:24,660 --> 00:36:22,990
colleague is doing in Afghanistan so the

747
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:24,670
boys go back out to the garden there was

748
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:27,130
show them another you know a pistol and

749
00:36:33,660 --> 00:36:29,770
things meant there was one case he never

750
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:33,670
opened and I when the boys were gone I

751
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:35,290
said what's in that case and he opened

752
00:36:39,569 --> 00:36:38,170
it up there was a knife there and it

753
00:36:42,750 --> 00:36:39,579
wasn't just any old life it was like a

754
00:36:44,089 --> 00:36:42,760
serrated knife and I said what's that

755
00:36:47,910 --> 00:36:44,099
for

756
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:47,920
we immediately realizing my naivete and

757
00:36:53,670 --> 00:36:50,890
my mistake and he said sometimes a job

758
00:36:55,620 --> 00:36:53,680
requires quiet that's all he said he

759
00:36:58,190 --> 00:36:55,630
never told me another thing about his

760
00:37:01,010 --> 00:36:58,200
job I never

761
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:01,020
I learned later from another colleague

762
00:37:07,820 --> 00:37:04,010
that he worked for the CIA's

763
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:07,830
paramilitary a division of very secret

764
00:37:16,190 --> 00:37:12,570
division called ground branch and that

765
00:37:19,550 --> 00:37:16,200
was the beginning of my wanting to write

766
00:37:22,190 --> 00:37:19,560
a book about the CIA's paramilitary and

767
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:22,200
it took me ten years and a whole bunch

768
00:37:32,030 --> 00:37:25,170
of other books to sort of slowly build

769
00:37:34,730 --> 00:37:32,040
sources to position myself in the place

770
00:37:36,950 --> 00:37:34,740
where I could then commit to writing a

771
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:36,960
book and and work with some sources

772
00:37:40,579 --> 00:37:38,970
forty five sources well you know one on

773
00:37:42,890 --> 00:37:40,589
the record with me

774
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:42,900
these are retired people who retired

775
00:37:49,609 --> 00:37:45,570
from these operations going back to the

776
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:49,619
Korean War but the guys 16 guys that

777
00:37:55,790 --> 00:37:51,930
were that were operating today or rather

778
00:37:58,099 --> 00:37:55,800
you know five years ago went on the

779
00:38:00,200 --> 00:37:58,109
record did not you know went using their

780
00:38:01,550 --> 00:38:00,210
coat their call signs so it was an

781
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:01,560
extraordinary book to write and it's

782
00:38:06,710 --> 00:38:04,170
really it's unbelievable that the CIA

783
00:38:09,500 --> 00:38:06,720
has a paramilitary and I say that it

784
00:38:11,150 --> 00:38:09,510
means that there is a you know the

785
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:11,160
Defense Department is the military it

786
00:38:14,510 --> 00:38:13,050
runs under what's called title 10

787
00:38:16,630 --> 00:38:14,520
Authority and they have rules of

788
00:38:19,490 --> 00:38:16,640
engagement and they conduct Wars

789
00:38:22,010 --> 00:38:19,500
the CIA's paramilitary does not follow

790
00:38:24,980 --> 00:38:22,020
those same rules at all they work under

791
00:38:26,720 --> 00:38:24,990
an authority called title 50 and they

792
00:38:28,910 --> 00:38:26,730
can do all kinds of things and they have

793
00:38:31,250 --> 00:38:28,920
small units and Singleton's and they

794
00:38:32,660 --> 00:38:31,260
have a program and always have which is

795
00:38:37,190 --> 00:38:32,670
the tip of the tip of a paramilitary

796
00:38:38,780 --> 00:38:37,200
sphere and that is assassination or it's

797
00:38:44,630 --> 00:38:38,790
as it's often called preemptive

798
00:38:51,140 --> 00:38:44,640
neutralization the obvious question is

799
00:38:57,230 --> 00:38:51,150
the 16 gentlemen that are currently

800
00:39:02,089 --> 00:38:57,240
active were were the words CIA part of

801
00:39:05,540 --> 00:39:02,099
the conversation so no one who works for

802
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:05,550
the CIA ever says CIA I don't think I

803
00:39:09,079 --> 00:39:07,050
can't think of a single person ever

804
00:39:10,130 --> 00:39:09,089
saying that they say the agency or they

805
00:39:12,140 --> 00:39:10,140
say the out

806
00:39:13,460 --> 00:39:12,150
right or they don't say anything they

807
00:39:17,749 --> 00:39:13,470
just talk about what they do but

808
00:39:19,549 --> 00:39:17,759
everyone who who is in my book work knew

809
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:19,559
at least two other individuals and

810
00:39:23,420 --> 00:39:21,450
worked with operated they you know they

811
00:39:24,829 --> 00:39:23,430
operate that's what they do and they

812
00:39:27,499 --> 00:39:24,839
operated with one another and they

813
00:39:30,410 --> 00:39:27,509
weren't current when you're current you

814
00:39:32,630 --> 00:39:30,420
cannot speak to a reporter all anyone

815
00:39:35,450 --> 00:39:32,640
who works for the CIA the agency the

816
00:39:37,509 --> 00:39:35,460
outfit they're polygraphed so I always

817
00:39:39,289 --> 00:39:37,519
know if I'm talking to someone that's

818
00:39:41,089 --> 00:39:39,299
current because they're like Annie I

819
00:39:44,359 --> 00:39:41,099
can't talk to you I'm not gonna fail my

820
00:39:45,979 --> 00:39:44,369
colleague I mean part number one

821
00:39:49,489 --> 00:39:45,989
question is have you spoken to a member

822
00:39:51,049 --> 00:39:49,499
of the press so you can't lie I mean you

823
00:39:53,569 --> 00:39:51,059
can but you're gonna be caught with your

824
00:39:55,370 --> 00:39:53,579
polygraph and so so these guys had all

825
00:39:58,489 --> 00:39:55,380
retired they had they had they all

826
00:40:02,029 --> 00:39:58,499
operated in Afghanistan and Iraq and had

827
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:02,039
had you know had stopped running

828
00:40:07,940 --> 00:40:04,650
missions like right around 2014 or 2015

829
00:40:10,309 --> 00:40:07,950
now I said the words CIA obviously I

830
00:40:14,870 --> 00:40:10,319
meant the the letter CIA the reason why

831
00:40:18,940 --> 00:40:14,880
I asked such a direct question is that

832
00:40:22,700 --> 00:40:18,950
if that's a zone that it seems almost

833
00:40:26,509 --> 00:40:22,710
impossible to get near to I don't know

834
00:40:29,299 --> 00:40:26,519
anybody that that I know of and even if

835
00:40:33,339 --> 00:40:29,309
I did I don't know how I would approach

836
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:33,349
them to discuss this but it seems that

837
00:40:39,079 --> 00:40:37,170
they were maybe are they ready are they

838
00:40:42,609 --> 00:40:39,089
you know is our they at a point in their

839
00:40:46,609 --> 00:40:42,619
life where they're okay to discuss this

840
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:46,619
well okay so I mean consider this I

841
00:40:50,299 --> 00:40:48,690
worked with people who are such legend

842
00:40:51,970 --> 00:40:50,309
and I when I say work with I mean I

843
00:40:55,519 --> 00:40:51,980
interviewed them but there are such

844
00:40:57,349 --> 00:40:55,529
legends in the CIA that it's known there

845
00:41:00,229 --> 00:40:57,359
in the CIA like my main character is a

846
00:41:01,999 --> 00:41:00,239
guy called Billy hua and he's now 89 but

847
00:41:06,489 --> 00:41:02,009
he's been running operations for the

848
00:41:10,460 --> 00:41:06,499
agency since since the sixties and so

849
00:41:12,140 --> 00:41:10,470
when it became known that I was working

850
00:41:14,479 --> 00:41:12,150
with him and he was telling me things

851
00:41:17,599 --> 00:41:14,489
and again a lot of missions get

852
00:41:20,599 --> 00:41:17,609
Declassified or rather you know the CIA

853
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:20,609
works in this way let me back up

854
00:41:23,559 --> 00:41:22,650
permanent okay well let me finish that

855
00:41:25,539 --> 00:41:23,569
thought I

856
00:41:27,609 --> 00:41:25,549
interviewed for example the CIA's

857
00:41:29,769 --> 00:41:27,619
longest-serving lawyer okay the guy

858
00:41:31,989 --> 00:41:29,779
named John Rizzo who wrote many of the

859
00:41:35,589 --> 00:41:31,999
memos that make these operations legal

860
00:41:37,299 --> 00:41:35,599
so I am a kind of reporter that works

861
00:41:39,699 --> 00:41:37,309
and works and works and works and works

862
00:41:42,420 --> 00:41:39,709
to get to the point where I am actually

863
00:41:45,430 --> 00:41:42,430
going to have real legitimate

864
00:41:48,279 --> 00:41:45,440
individuals go on the record with me and

865
00:41:50,259 --> 00:41:48,289
confirm things that I have spent quite a

866
00:41:53,769 --> 00:41:50,269
bit of time establishing can be

867
00:41:55,089 --> 00:41:53,779
confirmed pleased that many the public

868
00:41:57,309 --> 00:41:55,099
might not even know or even want to

869
00:42:02,410 --> 00:41:57,319
bother like knowing what the heck that

870
00:42:05,140 --> 00:42:02,420
is right so I interviewed Rizzo and I

871
00:42:07,329 --> 00:42:05,150
also interviewed a number of senior

872
00:42:09,039 --> 00:42:07,339
intelligence service staff so that's the

873
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:09,049
equivalent of a general at the Pentagon

874
00:42:15,039 --> 00:42:12,410
musical CIA has they're not they're not

875
00:42:16,870 --> 00:42:15,049
generals or Colonels there this one says

876
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:16,880
choose history says for that's the way

877
00:42:23,349 --> 00:42:20,930
you go up right and I interviewed five

878
00:42:29,529 --> 00:42:23,359
or six of them on the record with their

879
00:42:32,979 --> 00:42:29,539
name you know because there it made more

880
00:42:37,989 --> 00:42:32,989
sense I imagine to have the information

881
00:42:39,219 --> 00:42:37,999
correct than erroneous and of course

882
00:42:40,630 --> 00:42:39,229
they would say you know I can't talk

883
00:42:42,219 --> 00:42:40,640
about that any of that you know and that

884
00:42:45,999 --> 00:42:42,229
that's fine to you but like I could

885
00:42:48,489 --> 00:42:46,009
confirm piecemeal a lot of things but

886
00:42:51,459 --> 00:42:48,499
let me give you a quick precursor here

887
00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:51,469
okay so the president has always had two

888
00:42:56,650 --> 00:42:55,249
options first option diplomacy and two

889
00:42:59,170 --> 00:42:56,660
what options I say when dealing with

890
00:43:01,599 --> 00:42:59,180
foreign adversaries or foreign conflicts

891
00:43:04,359 --> 00:43:01,609
first option is diplomacy always the

892
00:43:07,390 --> 00:43:04,369
first choice second option war doesn't

893
00:43:09,069 --> 00:43:07,400
work out we're going to war after World

894
00:43:11,469 --> 00:43:09,079
War two with the creation of the

895
00:43:15,099 --> 00:43:11,479
National Security Act of 1947 the

896
00:43:17,499 --> 00:43:15,109
president got a secret third option was

897
00:43:22,329 --> 00:43:17,509
her Shia Optio it's called in Latin and

898
00:43:24,430 --> 00:43:22,339
that is the CIA's paramilitary it's

899
00:43:27,249 --> 00:43:24,440
called covert action it's the hidden

900
00:43:28,660 --> 00:43:27,259
hand and some of it is done through

901
00:43:30,489 --> 00:43:28,670
humans some of it has done through

902
00:43:32,859 --> 00:43:30,499
information some of it is done through

903
00:43:35,630 --> 00:43:32,869
actual what is called direct action

904
00:43:37,820 --> 00:43:35,640
there are military action and

905
00:43:39,410 --> 00:43:37,830
that is what I wrote about and you know

906
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:39,420
it's supposed to be the hidden hand it's

907
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:40,890
supposed to never be known but guess

908
00:43:47,690 --> 00:43:44,850
what if there's a huge debacle like the

909
00:43:49,610 --> 00:43:47,700
Bay of Pigs it is known and the Bay of

910
00:43:54,410 --> 00:43:49,620
Pigs is a great example because that was

911
00:43:56,330 --> 00:43:54,420
a CIA paramilitary operation and so it's

912
00:43:58,670 --> 00:43:56,340
known because all these records have

913
00:44:00,830 --> 00:43:58,680
been declassified but it wasn't pieced

914
00:44:03,230 --> 00:44:00,840
together and in the way I believe I did

915
00:44:05,660 --> 00:44:03,240
in my book surprise kill vanish to

916
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:05,670
demonstrate oh wait a minute Guatemala

917
00:44:09,740 --> 00:44:08,010
when we took it when we knocked out the

918
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:09,750
President and sent all these guys that

919
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:12,570
was uh oh my god that was the CIA's

920
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:14,610
paramilitary you see so I take wait a

921
00:44:18,860 --> 00:44:16,530
minute when we killed Che Guevara wait

922
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:18,870
that was the CIA's paramilitary

923
00:44:23,210 --> 00:44:21,570
operators assassin yes aha

924
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:23,220
and I piece it all together wait a

925
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:25,410
minute Obama's targeted killing program

926
00:44:31,070 --> 00:44:28,050
with the drones that was the CIA's

927
00:44:36,620 --> 00:44:31,080
paramilitary army yes right so that in

928
00:44:39,260 --> 00:44:36,630
that manner I write history the the the

929
00:44:42,650 --> 00:44:39,270
staff the men the the boots on the

930
00:44:48,020 --> 00:44:42,660
ground side of this are they helped me

931
00:44:50,660 --> 00:44:48,030
understand here are they military like

932
00:44:52,730 --> 00:44:50,670
during war right when they're active

933
00:44:56,690 --> 00:44:52,740
they're with the military during

934
00:44:59,290 --> 00:44:56,700
peacetime does the CIA recruit them you

935
00:45:05,150 --> 00:44:59,300
know to go out and to do missions or

936
00:45:07,730 --> 00:45:05,160
does the CIA have their own you know

937
00:45:10,370 --> 00:45:07,740
what I mean full-time they're a military

938
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:10,380
group how does that work it's a great

939
00:45:15,260 --> 00:45:12,210
question and it has evolved over time

940
00:45:16,910 --> 00:45:15,270
right so when it started out in 1947 it

941
00:45:19,370 --> 00:45:16,920
was called the president's guerrilla

942
00:45:21,020 --> 00:45:19,380
warfare Corps so all the guys are

943
00:45:23,180 --> 00:45:21,030
trained in gorilla warfare this is not

944
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:23,190
like tech this is not a you know

945
00:45:28,130 --> 00:45:25,890
military tactics like infantry men you

946
00:45:30,410 --> 00:45:28,140
know storm the frontlines what this is

947
00:45:33,980 --> 00:45:30,420
guerrilla warfare this is surprise kill

948
00:45:37,220 --> 00:45:33,990
vanish this is ugly dirty down and dirty

949
00:45:41,030 --> 00:45:37,230
kill as brutally as you can use a piano

950
00:45:44,930 --> 00:45:41,040
wire if you need to okay that's not what

951
00:45:47,930 --> 00:45:44,940
guerilla warfare is and over the decades

952
00:45:49,070 --> 00:45:47,940
it has become the way in which we fight

953
00:45:51,860 --> 00:45:49,080
wars is much

954
00:45:53,870 --> 00:45:51,870
guerrilla warfare based them on all wars

955
00:45:57,260 --> 00:45:53,880
on terror guerrilla warfare based right

956
00:46:00,290 --> 00:45:57,270
so to answer your question everybody in

957
00:46:03,170 --> 00:46:00,300
the CIA's paramilitary is mit has

958
00:46:07,130 --> 00:46:03,180
guerrilla warfare training most of it

959
00:46:10,690 --> 00:46:07,140
from the military so most parents CIA

960
00:46:15,830 --> 00:46:10,700
paramilitary operators were Green Berets

961
00:46:19,250 --> 00:46:15,840
Delta Force Navy SEALs paratroopers

962
00:46:21,170 --> 00:46:19,260
MARSOC they retire from their military

963
00:46:23,390 --> 00:46:21,180
service they get what is called sheep

964
00:46:25,090 --> 00:46:23,400
dipped in some situations and then they

965
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:25,100
go over and they work for the CIA

966
00:46:31,310 --> 00:46:29,010
in a few instances people officers in

967
00:46:34,010 --> 00:46:31,320
particular who become PMO's paramilitary

968
00:46:36,050 --> 00:46:34,020
operations officers they go right

969
00:46:39,710 --> 00:46:36,060
they have like a different little bit of

970
00:46:42,740 --> 00:46:39,720
a different track they go to the farm

971
00:46:44,420 --> 00:46:42,750
and get paramilitary you know guerrilla

972
00:46:46,460 --> 00:46:44,430
warfare training at the farm that's the

973
00:46:48,500 --> 00:46:46,470
CIA's training headquarters and then

974
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:48,510
they become the sort of you know the

975
00:46:51,860 --> 00:46:50,370
equivalent the military equivalent the

976
00:46:55,210 --> 00:46:51,870
officer of the group and those are the

977
00:46:58,400 --> 00:46:55,220
guys who are like you know saying no

978
00:47:01,400 --> 00:46:58,410
essentially out in the field but they

979
00:47:02,540 --> 00:47:01,410
all have to be you know trained because

980
00:47:05,750 --> 00:47:02,550
they're all in these extraordinary

981
00:47:08,570 --> 00:47:05,760
life-or-death situations how do we how

982
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:08,580
do we wrap our minds around this in that

983
00:47:14,540 --> 00:47:11,610
we see it in the movies right the CIA

984
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:14,550
paramilitary you know the the covert the

985
00:47:19,910 --> 00:47:18,210
the slashing of of a throat and the you

986
00:47:21,020 --> 00:47:19,920
know stillness of the night that kind of

987
00:47:23,930 --> 00:47:21,030
thing and it makes for good Hollywood

988
00:47:26,330 --> 00:47:23,940
movies but then there's the other side

989
00:47:28,370 --> 00:47:26,340
of it which is harsh reality it's it's

990
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:28,380
like neo in the matrix when he jumps

991
00:47:33,350 --> 00:47:29,970
back and says what do you mean this is

992
00:47:35,510 --> 00:47:33,360
real you know so how do we how do we

993
00:47:39,380 --> 00:47:35,520
wrap our minds around that and accept it

994
00:47:43,070 --> 00:47:39,390
I mean that's you know writing this book

995
00:47:44,330 --> 00:47:43,080
was extraordinary for me and you've hit

996
00:47:47,060 --> 00:47:44,340
the nail on the head with the questions

997
00:47:48,950 --> 00:47:47,070
so asked but going back to how did I you

998
00:47:50,540 --> 00:47:48,960
know when I won my when my colleague

999
00:47:53,540 --> 00:47:50,550
came and visited with me and I realized

1000
00:47:56,390 --> 00:47:53,550
oh my god he's he's doing surprise killa

1001
00:47:58,760 --> 00:47:56,400
vanish right which was the it's an that

1002
00:48:01,400 --> 00:47:58,770
name comes from the original program

1003
00:48:02,940 --> 00:48:01,410
that fought Nazis by the OSS which was

1004
00:48:05,819 --> 00:48:02,950
the precursor organization to

1005
00:48:08,430 --> 00:48:05,829
and when he went that night when I was

1006
00:48:12,410 --> 00:48:08,440
thinking of him with the knife versus

1007
00:48:15,420 --> 00:48:12,420
the sniper rifle I was like okay I can

1008
00:48:17,549 --> 00:48:15,430
to your point about you know neo and the

1009
00:48:19,650 --> 00:48:17,559
matrix and how do we wrap our minds on

1010
00:48:24,180 --> 00:48:19,660
this I thought this is so strange

1011
00:48:26,819 --> 00:48:24,190
I can accept my friend shooting an

1012
00:48:28,980 --> 00:48:26,829
al-qaeda or a Taliban on the next Hill

1013
00:48:32,339 --> 00:48:28,990
over with a sniper rifle I can accept

1014
00:48:35,579 --> 00:48:32,349
that for whatever reason I couldn't

1015
00:48:36,750 --> 00:48:35,589
imagine him slitting someone's throat or

1016
00:48:40,559 --> 00:48:36,760
jabbing it in their ribs

1017
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:40,569
mm-hm and it was that gave me pause not

1018
00:48:46,559 --> 00:48:42,970
as much him doing it but me I was like

1019
00:48:50,789 --> 00:48:46,569
why am i differentiate killing is

1020
00:48:52,109 --> 00:48:50,799
killing why does one seem you know one

1021
00:48:53,789 --> 00:48:52,119
way and the other seems the other way

1022
00:48:55,470 --> 00:48:53,799
and I wrote the book because I wanted to

1023
00:48:57,839 --> 00:48:55,480
know the answer if exactly that question

1024
00:49:01,289 --> 00:48:57,849
you're asking and I know that I you know

1025
00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:01,299
I learned that I learned a lot writing

1026
00:49:08,730 --> 00:49:03,970
this book and I take the reader through

1027
00:49:16,069 --> 00:49:08,740
this extraordinarily complex and at

1028
00:49:19,740 --> 00:49:16,079
times very very dark history and I think

1029
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:19,750
you know people who I have gotten an

1030
00:49:24,210 --> 00:49:21,970
extraordinary amount of response back

1031
00:49:25,319 --> 00:49:24,220
from people who have had that same you

1032
00:49:26,730 --> 00:49:25,329
know who shared have shared with me

1033
00:49:28,589 --> 00:49:26,740
their experience after reading the book

1034
00:49:30,030 --> 00:49:28,599
which is super interesting because

1035
00:49:31,530 --> 00:49:30,040
that's why I wrote the book because it

1036
00:49:32,819 --> 00:49:31,540
is it didn't you have an individual

1037
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:32,829
response of what you think about this

1038
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:35,410
heads their we're gonna head towards a

1039
00:49:42,210 --> 00:49:37,410
break here in a second has there been

1040
00:49:44,190 --> 00:49:42,220
any blowback not only from say the CIA I

1041
00:49:46,980 --> 00:49:44,200
don't know if the CIA sanctioned or

1042
00:49:51,240 --> 00:49:46,990
blessed the writing of this book but

1043
00:49:53,730 --> 00:49:51,250
then the other part with those that went

1044
00:49:55,799 --> 00:49:53,740
on the record were they were they

1045
00:50:00,900 --> 00:49:55,809
reticent after the fact and and maybe

1046
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:00,910
got got a little heat you know I haven't

1047
00:50:05,609 --> 00:50:02,770
heard any of that I mean the the most

1048
00:50:07,410 --> 00:50:05,619
heat I got from it's always bizarre

1049
00:50:09,059 --> 00:50:07,420
being a reporter because what you think

1050
00:50:12,870 --> 00:50:09,069
and what you worry about what you wonder

1051
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:12,880
about you you you you just can never

1052
00:50:16,750 --> 00:50:14,210
predict

1053
00:50:22,329 --> 00:50:16,760
and what I was most interested in is

1054
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:22,339
that one you know like I am the kind of

1055
00:50:28,060 --> 00:50:24,290
officer that gets reviewed in big

1056
00:50:34,140 --> 00:50:28,070
mainstream newspapers and one that will

1057
00:50:38,500 --> 00:50:34,150
remain nameless newspaper ripped me

1058
00:50:43,180 --> 00:50:38,510
personally to shreds saying that I had

1059
00:50:46,359 --> 00:50:43,190
that I was endorsing this kind of toxic

1060
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:46,369
masculinity and this you know Hollywood

1061
00:50:50,890 --> 00:50:48,770
fantasy and it was just a little bizarre

1062
00:50:52,900 --> 00:50:50,900
because I thought I mean I'm aware that

1063
00:50:56,140 --> 00:50:52,910
people bring their own two cents into

1064
00:50:58,480 --> 00:50:56,150
any any book they read but that was not

1065
00:50:59,800 --> 00:50:58,490
at all my takeaway from that night and

1066
00:51:02,010 --> 00:50:59,810
you know this was actually ironically

1067
00:51:04,630 --> 00:51:02,020
was a Pulitzer Prize winning author

1068
00:51:12,390 --> 00:51:04,640
ripping me to shreds saying that I was

1069
00:51:16,300 --> 00:51:12,400
just killing yes I thought like wow

1070
00:51:17,260 --> 00:51:16,310
that's wild you know but again I'll end

1071
00:51:20,079 --> 00:51:17,270
with this I'm never going to break I

1072
00:51:22,450 --> 00:51:20,089
mean I write books I try to be neutral

1073
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:22,460
that's my real I don't I definitely

1074
00:51:27,849 --> 00:51:24,650
don't have a political opinion or I

1075
00:51:29,950 --> 00:51:27,859
don't bring it into the books and I try

1076
00:51:31,630 --> 00:51:29,960
to be neutral and just tell the facts

1077
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:31,640
and I remember when I wrote Operation

1078
00:51:35,770 --> 00:51:33,890
Paperclip about the Nazis did not the

1079
00:51:39,460 --> 00:51:35,780
scientist we brought here I could go on

1080
00:51:41,770 --> 00:51:39,470
Fox News and have them say oh my god

1081
00:51:43,210 --> 00:51:41,780
anything god you wrote this book you

1082
00:51:44,890 --> 00:51:43,220
showed that these guys were morally

1083
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:44,900
reprehensible they were terrible but

1084
00:51:48,339 --> 00:51:47,330
thank God we brought them here because

1085
00:51:50,650 --> 00:51:48,349
we wouldn't have won the Cold War

1086
00:51:53,050 --> 00:51:50,660
without them thank you for writing this

1087
00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:53,060
book then I could go over on CNN or even

1088
00:51:56,140 --> 00:51:54,890
to the Holocaust Museum and they would

1089
00:51:58,359 --> 00:51:56,150
say oh my god Annie

1090
00:52:00,310 --> 00:51:58,369
thank God you wrote this book you show

1091
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:00,320
us that these Nazi scientists were the

1092
00:52:05,500 --> 00:52:03,290
most despicable evil horrible men in the

1093
00:52:09,490 --> 00:52:05,510
whole world and boy is it so clear we

1094
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:09,500
should have never ever done this program

1095
00:52:17,130 --> 00:52:13,490
they read the same box isn't that

1096
00:52:20,290 --> 00:52:17,140
interesting now isn't that interesting

1097
00:52:23,500 --> 00:52:20,300
yes and when I was fascinated by in this

1098
00:52:29,250 --> 00:52:23,510
particular book is that no one wrote the

1099
00:52:32,170 --> 00:52:29,260
counter and review and said

1100
00:52:34,150 --> 00:52:32,180
you know they didn't there wasn't the

1101
00:52:35,500 --> 00:52:34,160
CNN version of it and I thought that was

1102
00:52:37,690 --> 00:52:35,510
fascinating and I do think that's the

1103
00:52:41,890 --> 00:52:37,700
product of the times that we live in I

1104
00:52:43,240 --> 00:52:41,900
think that I think that's interesting

1105
00:52:46,180 --> 00:52:43,250
and I think more than anything what it

1106
00:52:49,859 --> 00:52:46,190
does is it speaks to the burden that

1107
00:52:52,120 --> 00:52:49,869
these operators have because you know

1108
00:52:54,069 --> 00:52:52,130
again not trying to cast a moral

1109
00:52:56,650 --> 00:52:54,079
judgment on whether what they do but

1110
00:52:57,940 --> 00:52:56,660
they are doing something legally they

1111
00:53:00,339 --> 00:52:57,950
are doing something that comes directly

1112
00:53:02,829 --> 00:53:00,349
from a presidential memorandum of

1113
00:53:04,510 --> 00:53:02,839
understanding it's called an MOU I know

1114
00:53:07,359 --> 00:53:04,520
that's from interviewing the CIA's

1115
00:53:09,579 --> 00:53:07,369
lawyer this is all legal there is no

1116
00:53:11,620 --> 00:53:09,589
such thing as a rogue operation these

1117
00:53:14,790 --> 00:53:11,630
guys are doing what they are asked to do

1118
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:14,800
for the country and to think that that's

1119
00:53:20,980 --> 00:53:18,290
equated with like moral reprehensibility

1120
00:53:23,500 --> 00:53:20,990
or whatever the word is is that that is

1121
00:53:29,290 --> 00:53:23,510
interesting to me and I you asked is it

1122
00:53:32,950 --> 00:53:29,300
dark I mean a lot of these guys feel

1123
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:32,960
stigmatized and I empathize with that

1124
00:53:38,620 --> 00:53:36,410
because you know I sit here in my

1125
00:53:41,290 --> 00:53:38,630
air-conditioned office and they're over

1126
00:53:44,859 --> 00:53:41,300
there right working at the behest of the

1127
00:53:48,190 --> 00:53:44,869
president right doing doing doing things

1128
00:53:50,530 --> 00:53:48,200
that well we see it in movies but then

1129
00:53:53,890 --> 00:53:50,540
do we keep our heads in the sand and

1130
00:53:56,559 --> 00:53:53,900
ignore that this is also possibly part

1131
00:53:58,150 --> 00:53:56,569
of our own reality and that's that's the

1132
00:53:59,680 --> 00:53:58,160
crazy part for me let's take our break

1133
00:54:01,870 --> 00:53:59,690
right here I guess tonight

1134
00:54:03,490 --> 00:54:01,880
Annie Jacobson we're talking about her

1135
00:54:05,950 --> 00:54:03,500
new book it's called surprise kill

1136
00:54:08,380 --> 00:54:05,960
banish the secret history of the CIA

1137
00:54:09,970 --> 00:54:08,390
paramilitary armies operators and

1138
00:54:11,890 --> 00:54:09,980
assassins I'm your host Jimmy Church

1139
00:54:15,310 --> 00:54:11,900
we'll be right back after this short

1140
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:50,430
[Music]

1141
00:54:55,730 --> 00:54:53,410
[Applause]

1142
00:54:57,470 --> 00:54:55,740
welcome back fade to black our meals to

1143
00:54:59,600 --> 00:54:57,480
be Church tonight our guest is Hany

1144
00:55:01,550 --> 00:54:59,610
Jacobsen were discussing her new book it

1145
00:55:02,570 --> 00:55:01,560
is called surprise kill banish and get

1146
00:55:05,450 --> 00:55:02,580
it on Amazon

1147
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:05,460
Annie's links to her website are over at

1148
00:55:11,570 --> 00:55:07,650
Jimmy Church radio.com it is an

1149
00:55:14,180 --> 00:55:11,580
excellent read and Annie I was sitting

1150
00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:14,190
here thinking I wanted to talk about you

1151
00:55:18,950 --> 00:55:16,770
know the state of mind of the people

1152
00:55:23,590 --> 00:55:18,960
that you interviewed and it takes me

1153
00:55:27,530 --> 00:55:23,600
back to the mid 80s I had a friend

1154
00:55:30,500 --> 00:55:27,540
wealthy guy in Pasadena and he came to

1155
00:55:34,190 --> 00:55:30,510
me very cool and he goes hey Jimmy I'm

1156
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:34,200
going to be going on this African

1157
00:55:39,830 --> 00:55:36,930
adventure we're gonna go up the Nile

1158
00:55:41,870 --> 00:55:39,840
we're gonna go through Somalia and

1159
00:55:46,190 --> 00:55:41,880
Ethiopia and the Sudan and we're gonna

1160
00:55:49,070 --> 00:55:46,200
end up in Egypt by boat and and if you

1161
00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:49,080
want to go you can go and I said what

1162
00:55:55,940 --> 00:55:52,530
did you just say I'm just a kid and he

1163
00:55:57,500 --> 00:55:55,950
goes I'm good to be meeting with one of

1164
00:56:00,590 --> 00:55:57,510
the guys tonight we got to go through

1165
00:56:03,260 --> 00:56:00,600
training and and guns and and stuff and

1166
00:56:05,349 --> 00:56:03,270
he's a mercenary and so come to dinner

1167
00:56:09,050 --> 00:56:05,359
with us tonight we'll talk about it and

1168
00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:09,060
and I and I so I go to this dinner and

1169
00:56:17,570 --> 00:56:11,970
I'm with this guy who is one of the most

1170
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:17,580
intimidating young to beard big guy and

1171
00:56:21,859 --> 00:56:20,010
he is talking about the training that we

1172
00:56:24,140 --> 00:56:21,869
got to do to go through this and

1173
00:56:25,670 --> 00:56:24,150
automatic fire and we're gonna go here

1174
00:56:27,020 --> 00:56:25,680
and you know weapons training and all

1175
00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:27,030
this but we're gonna go through all of

1176
00:56:33,620 --> 00:56:30,170
this you know rough part of Africa and

1177
00:56:37,550 --> 00:56:33,630
but I was studying this guy Annie and

1178
00:56:40,420 --> 00:56:37,560
there was something he was nice and

1179
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:40,430
everything but there was something bent

1180
00:56:46,010 --> 00:56:44,010
you know there was something that just

1181
00:56:48,859 --> 00:56:46,020
freaked me out I remember riding home in

1182
00:56:53,470 --> 00:56:48,869
the car going dude I'm out no way

1183
00:56:55,940 --> 00:56:53,480
there's no way but my friend did go and

1184
00:56:57,770 --> 00:56:55,950
and one who did that did the whole thing

1185
00:57:01,180 --> 00:56:57,780
and I saw him like three months later

1186
00:57:05,310 --> 00:57:01,190
and his stories were pretty amazing but

1187
00:57:07,740 --> 00:57:05,320
these these personnel

1188
00:57:10,470 --> 00:57:07,750
when when you look at them and you talk

1189
00:57:13,410 --> 00:57:10,480
to them how are they are they are they

1190
00:57:16,470 --> 00:57:13,420
stable are they are they okay they're

1191
00:57:21,420 --> 00:57:16,480
doing the the craziest tasks that can be

1192
00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:21,430
imagined aren't they yes but let me

1193
00:57:25,860 --> 00:57:23,770
differentiate first of all that's an

1194
00:57:28,290 --> 00:57:25,870
amazing story and I wonder my god I mean

1195
00:57:30,840 --> 00:57:28,300
it doesn't get any more dangerous than

1196
00:57:35,220 --> 00:57:30,850
going you know along the Nile in those

1197
00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:35,230
countries and I wonder what they were

1198
00:57:41,070 --> 00:57:38,410
doing I mean a mercenary is a broad term

1199
00:57:42,630 --> 00:57:41,080
right so what I write about specifically

1200
00:57:47,060 --> 00:57:42,640
in the book and what I try to make

1201
00:57:50,100 --> 00:57:47,070
really clear is that all of this is

1202
00:57:52,590 --> 00:57:50,110
legal and at the behest of the President

1203
00:57:55,560 --> 00:57:52,600
of the United States right so in other

1204
00:58:00,120 --> 00:57:55,570
and they're doing direct action direct

1205
00:58:01,350 --> 00:58:00,130
action in essence means in many cases

1206
00:58:02,970 --> 00:58:01,360
killing I mean certainly in the war on

1207
00:58:05,340 --> 00:58:02,980
terror now when you have when you're

1208
00:58:06,930 --> 00:58:05,350
going after a high valid value target

1209
00:58:08,580 --> 00:58:06,940
it's called a kill or capture mission

1210
00:58:10,980 --> 00:58:08,590
but what everyone would say to me is

1211
00:58:11,970 --> 00:58:10,990
it's a kill mission I mean no one none

1212
00:58:15,840 --> 00:58:11,980
of these guys are gonna let themselves

1213
00:58:19,260 --> 00:58:15,850
get captured so they are going on kill

1214
00:58:21,180 --> 00:58:19,270
missions very small targeted hunter

1215
00:58:26,820 --> 00:58:21,190
missions in essence so it does give that

1216
00:58:28,830 --> 00:58:26,830
sense of like the kind of training you

1217
00:58:34,290 --> 00:58:28,840
must have in the mindset you must have

1218
00:58:36,600 --> 00:58:34,300
but it is military in nature in as much

1219
00:58:41,010 --> 00:58:36,610
that that that is how they're training

1220
00:58:43,950 --> 00:58:41,020
and that's how they're operating all of

1221
00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:43,960
the CIA paramilitary operators I spoke

1222
00:58:46,920 --> 00:58:45,610
to and the bigger the bigger branch is

1223
00:58:50,040 --> 00:58:46,930
called the special Activities Division

1224
00:58:52,080 --> 00:58:50,050
ok si D and they have what's called a

1225
00:58:53,420 --> 00:58:52,090
ground branch which is boots on the

1226
00:58:57,720 --> 00:58:53,430
ground they have an air branch

1227
00:58:59,970 --> 00:58:57,730
drones they have a maritime branch which

1228
00:59:01,980 --> 00:58:59,980
is operations at sea

1229
00:59:03,150 --> 00:59:01,990
that's impenetrable I could not get any

1230
00:59:06,050 --> 00:59:03,160
information about that

1231
00:59:09,030 --> 00:59:06,060
ok so how's that for intrigue right but

1232
00:59:12,600 --> 00:59:09,040
they all all the ground branch operators

1233
00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:12,610
talk about really specifically and very

1234
00:59:18,279 --> 00:59:16,090
clearly that they are not Blackwater

1235
00:59:24,539 --> 00:59:18,289
they are not defense

1236
00:59:27,309 --> 00:59:24,549
tractors they are very specifically

1237
00:59:32,349 --> 00:59:27,319
doing the president's bidding and so

1238
00:59:34,839 --> 00:59:32,359
there is a friction between this idea of

1239
00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:34,849
you know Blackwater kind of what they

1240
00:59:44,079 --> 00:59:38,890
think perceived to be sort of gung-ho

1241
00:59:45,909 --> 00:59:44,089
verb you know outspoken very kind of for

1242
00:59:47,829 --> 00:59:45,919
lack of a better word braggers let's say

1243
00:59:49,569 --> 00:59:47,839
right who don't actually have the

1244
00:59:51,669 --> 00:59:49,579
authority to do direct action because

1245
00:59:54,249 --> 00:59:51,679
direct action is only legal at the

1246
00:59:59,429 --> 00:59:54,259
president's behalf under title 50 and so

1247
01:00:07,630 --> 01:00:05,169
highly trained and following the action

1248
01:00:09,279 --> 01:00:07,640
specifically as to what they're supposed

1249
01:00:12,819 --> 01:00:09,289
to do and therefore they don't brag they

1250
01:00:18,909 --> 01:00:12,829
are very very very soft-spoken about all

1251
01:00:19,419 --> 01:00:18,919
of this the the other aspect to this do

1252
01:00:22,239 --> 01:00:19,429
they

1253
01:00:23,109 --> 01:00:22,249
I know these these may seem like dumb

1254
01:00:25,899 --> 01:00:23,119
questions

1255
01:00:29,019 --> 01:00:25,909
but do they wear uniforms do they have

1256
01:00:30,399 --> 01:00:29,029
ID are they have linguist

1257
01:00:32,859 --> 01:00:30,409
that's actually a brilliant question

1258
01:00:36,399 --> 01:00:32,869
they do not know not wear any uniforms

1259
01:00:38,890 --> 01:00:36,409
whatsoever because it is the president's

1260
01:00:40,719 --> 01:00:38,900
the third option tercio Optio is the

1261
01:00:44,499 --> 01:00:40,729
president's hidden hand it is meant to

1262
01:00:46,419 --> 01:00:44,509
be plausibly denied so they do great

1263
01:00:50,469 --> 01:00:46,429
question they do not wear any markings

1264
01:00:52,449 --> 01:00:50,479
on their on their clothes and during the

1265
01:00:54,999 --> 01:00:52,459
Vietnam War the organization was called

1266
01:00:57,039 --> 01:00:55,009
Mac V SOG and those missions have been

1267
01:00:59,409 --> 01:00:57,049
Declassified and you can see that was a

1268
01:01:00,159 --> 01:00:59,419
deal of Defense Department and CIA joint

1269
01:01:02,620 --> 01:01:00,169
operation

1270
01:01:05,979 --> 01:01:02,630
but they weren't wearing any markings so

1271
01:01:08,019 --> 01:01:05,989
even their cigarettes were Chinese right

1272
01:01:10,659 --> 01:01:08,029
so there's nothing American they're

1273
01:01:14,799 --> 01:01:10,669
they're their weapons are Swedish K

1274
01:01:17,589 --> 01:01:14,809
their knives are made in Japan they do

1275
01:01:19,899 --> 01:01:17,599
not have anything American I mean here's

1276
01:01:21,819 --> 01:01:19,909
another interesting detail the bin Laden

1277
01:01:25,419 --> 01:01:21,829
raid okay when bin Laden was killed

1278
01:01:27,969 --> 01:01:25,429
that was a CIA paramilitary operation so

1279
01:01:29,890 --> 01:01:27,979
you go it's yes it's promoted as the

1280
01:01:30,750 --> 01:01:29,900
Navy SEALs because all of those guys

1281
01:01:33,600 --> 01:01:30,760
were

1282
01:01:37,980 --> 01:01:33,610
in fact Navy SEALs by training but for

1283
01:01:44,310 --> 01:01:37,990
the night they became CIA operators they

1284
01:01:45,900 --> 01:01:44,320
did not wear military markings on any of

1285
01:01:50,010 --> 01:01:45,910
their clothing and it's funny because

1286
01:01:54,120 --> 01:01:50,020
the one of the guys outfits was up the

1287
01:01:55,410 --> 01:01:54,130
museum here the the Nixon Library and it

1288
01:01:58,740 --> 01:01:55,420
was so funny because you could see I

1289
01:02:00,540 --> 01:01:58,750
want Islands if I was with a CIA

1290
01:02:03,060 --> 01:02:00,550
operator and we were he was showing me

1291
01:02:06,660 --> 01:02:03,070
like okay you see that that's been his

1292
01:02:07,770 --> 01:02:06,670
name O'Neill got sewn on for a fact to

1293
01:02:10,110 --> 01:02:07,780
be in that Museum

1294
01:02:13,350 --> 01:02:10,120
but everything else about it was missing

1295
01:02:16,230 --> 01:02:13,360
any kind of marking so that was a CIA

1296
01:02:17,940 --> 01:02:16,240
mission and then the next day once bin

1297
01:02:22,560 --> 01:02:17,950
Laden was killed the guys went back to

1298
01:02:24,780 --> 01:02:22,570
being seals why because you can't kill

1299
01:02:26,730 --> 01:02:24,790
the military title ten rules of

1300
01:02:29,220 --> 01:02:26,740
engagement they can the military the US

1301
01:02:32,220 --> 01:02:29,230
military cannot go kill someone in a

1302
01:02:35,220 --> 01:02:32,230
sovereign nation which is Pakistan so it

1303
01:02:38,190 --> 01:02:35,230
has to wear as the CIA again under title

1304
01:02:39,810 --> 01:02:38,200
50 authority and so that's why in that

1305
01:02:42,000 --> 01:02:39,820
famous photograph you have the director

1306
01:02:43,320 --> 01:02:42,010
of the CIA Leon Panetta standing there

1307
01:02:48,330 --> 01:02:43,330
next to an Obama because it was his

1308
01:02:50,240 --> 01:02:48,340
mission how how many you aged I don't

1309
01:02:53,610 --> 01:02:50,250
know if you've got this information but

1310
01:02:56,340 --> 01:02:53,620
how many of these operations go on is it

1311
01:02:59,250 --> 01:02:56,350
like right now you and I are on the

1312
01:03:02,550 --> 01:02:59,260
radio is there something going on right

1313
01:03:04,770 --> 01:03:02,560
now okay so the special Activities

1314
01:03:06,270 --> 01:03:04,780
Division it had all kinds of names

1315
01:03:07,680 --> 01:03:06,280
throughout I mean I go back in history

1316
01:03:10,020 --> 01:03:07,690
right I mean you know because there's

1317
01:03:12,300 --> 01:03:10,030
there's there's paramilitary armies

1318
01:03:15,140 --> 01:03:12,310
doing things like for JFK that did the

1319
01:03:17,130 --> 01:03:15,150
Bay of Pigs and then JFK had his

1320
01:03:21,060 --> 01:03:17,140
assassination unit which he called

1321
01:03:24,510 --> 01:03:21,070
executive action you know Reagan called

1322
01:03:26,250 --> 01:03:24,520
his preemptive neutralization so they

1323
01:03:27,690 --> 01:03:26,260
have the big units the small units and

1324
01:03:30,270 --> 01:03:27,700
then sort of in during the Reagan area

1325
01:03:32,130 --> 01:03:30,280
it became it became known as a special

1326
01:03:35,220 --> 01:03:32,140
Activities Division and it has been that

1327
01:03:39,510 --> 01:03:35,230
through the decades since but during the

1328
01:03:42,570 --> 01:03:39,520
war on terror this Authority expanded

1329
01:03:44,130 --> 01:03:42,580
exponentially and recently the special

1330
01:03:47,580 --> 01:03:44,140
Activities Division

1331
01:03:50,460 --> 01:03:47,590
has become the special Activities Center

1332
01:03:53,210 --> 01:03:50,470
at Langley CIA headquarters

1333
01:03:56,310 --> 01:03:53,220
meaning it's its own interdisciplinary

1334
01:03:58,760 --> 01:03:56,320
center it has more missions going on

1335
01:04:02,910 --> 01:03:58,770
than ever in the history of the CIA and

1336
01:04:04,560 --> 01:04:02,920
as I've been told operating in a hundred

1337
01:04:12,090 --> 01:04:04,570
and thirty-four countries around the

1338
01:04:13,440 --> 01:04:12,100
globe the these okay this is where we

1339
01:04:16,140 --> 01:04:13,450
just got to get a little bit direct

1340
01:04:19,170 --> 01:04:16,150
there there is the obvious stuff like

1341
01:04:21,360 --> 01:04:19,180
Maduro in in venezuela you know these

1342
01:04:26,790 --> 01:04:21,370
things that are in in in the public

1343
01:04:29,730 --> 01:04:26,800
domain but if this operation if these

1344
01:04:33,870 --> 01:04:29,740
operations are going down we would never

1345
01:04:35,550 --> 01:04:33,880
hear about them right you're you're not

1346
01:04:37,230 --> 01:04:35,560
supposed to that's the whole option

1347
01:04:39,720 --> 01:04:37,240
that's the whole point of the hidden

1348
01:04:41,310 --> 01:04:39,730
hand so in other words and also what i

1349
01:04:43,950 --> 01:04:41,320
might add a lot of times when they're on

1350
01:04:46,320 --> 01:04:43,960
up in in sovereign nations right and

1351
01:04:48,630 --> 01:04:46,330
nato partner countries what i learned is

1352
01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:48,640
that a lot of times a team will be sent

1353
01:04:53,820 --> 01:04:50,290
in to do what's called make book on

1354
01:04:56,790 --> 01:04:53,830
somebody so there is an individual that

1355
01:05:00,960 --> 01:04:56,800
is going to be on the president's kill

1356
01:05:03,000 --> 01:05:00,970
or capture list but the team goes in to

1357
01:05:05,910 --> 01:05:03,010
make book on the person to find out who

1358
01:05:07,860 --> 01:05:05,920
he is where he lives you know who his

1359
01:05:11,040 --> 01:05:07,870
family members are what he does all day

1360
01:05:15,000 --> 01:05:11,050
and then they begin to build a package

1361
01:05:17,550 --> 01:05:15,010
about him first and foremost that they

1362
01:05:20,580 --> 01:05:17,560
might want to blackmail him with so they

1363
01:05:22,320 --> 01:05:20,590
find out does he have any porn habits is

1364
01:05:25,470 --> 01:05:22,330
he having any affairs is he stealing

1365
01:05:29,610 --> 01:05:25,480
money and then they use all of this

1366
01:05:32,100 --> 01:05:29,620
disinformation in a manner that they

1367
01:05:37,260 --> 01:05:32,110
might take non-lethal actions so they

1368
01:05:38,940 --> 01:05:37,270
may destroy the individual socially you

1369
01:05:40,620 --> 01:05:38,950
know meaning within the hierarchy that

1370
01:05:43,680 --> 01:05:40,630
the terrorist organization that he

1371
01:05:45,450 --> 01:05:43,690
exists in hezbollah hamas by saying look

1372
01:05:48,890 --> 01:05:45,460
we know this about you and if you don't

1373
01:05:50,760 --> 01:05:48,900
act you know maybe they turn him

1374
01:05:52,890 --> 01:05:50,770
otherwise we're going to make this

1375
01:05:55,170 --> 01:05:52,900
public so those are non-lethal

1376
01:05:57,900 --> 01:05:55,180
operations and then in other situations

1377
01:06:00,299 --> 01:05:57,910
there's capture operations where they

1378
01:06:02,279 --> 01:06:00,309
grab somebody and that's a whole other

1379
01:06:05,069 --> 01:06:02,289
problem because Obama got rid of

1380
01:06:06,809 --> 01:06:05,079
enhanced interrogation and so it's

1381
01:06:08,099 --> 01:06:06,819
really tricky what do you do with

1382
01:06:09,960 --> 01:06:08,109
someone you know you can't hold them

1383
01:06:12,089 --> 01:06:09,970
indefinitely right that's I deal with

1384
01:06:13,770 --> 01:06:12,099
that in the book Obama you know got rid

1385
01:06:17,940 --> 01:06:13,780
of the enhanced interrogation programs

1386
01:06:20,970 --> 01:06:17,950
but expanded the killed missions so some

1387
01:06:24,180 --> 01:06:20,980
people you know accuse him of getting

1388
01:06:28,910 --> 01:06:24,190
rid of torture by killing these are

1389
01:06:31,440 --> 01:06:28,920
really complicated issues the the

1390
01:06:33,839 --> 01:06:31,450
revealing of this publicly would never

1391
01:06:36,539 --> 01:06:33,849
happen right it just wouldn't appear in

1392
01:06:40,559 --> 01:06:36,549
mainstream media but on the other side

1393
01:06:42,990 --> 01:06:40,569
of it if you are the subject of one of

1394
01:06:44,789 --> 01:06:43,000
these missions you're embarrassed by it

1395
01:06:47,069 --> 01:06:44,799
if somebody is killed if somebody's

1396
01:06:49,200 --> 01:06:47,079
taken out of somebody is captured or

1397
01:06:51,359 --> 01:06:49,210
kidnapped or removed out of the country

1398
01:06:53,130 --> 01:06:51,369
you're not going to publicize it on your

1399
01:06:55,620 --> 01:06:53,140
end either you can't have that

1400
01:06:59,160 --> 01:06:55,630
embarrassment therefore all of these

1401
01:07:03,000 --> 01:06:59,170
missions pretty much go unnoticed that

1402
01:07:05,099 --> 01:07:03,010
has to be the way it goes doctor that's

1403
01:07:06,450 --> 01:07:05,109
exactly right and so the ones I take you

1404
01:07:13,680 --> 01:07:06,460
through a lot of things that Billy

1405
01:07:15,900 --> 01:07:13,690
lauded because he being 89 you know he's

1406
01:07:17,579 --> 01:07:15,910
he shared with me a number of the

1407
01:07:20,099 --> 01:07:17,589
missions and I was a band and and some

1408
01:07:23,430 --> 01:07:20,109
of them have gone wrong and so you're I

1409
01:07:24,990 --> 01:07:23,440
was able to source the facts of the

1410
01:07:28,890 --> 01:07:25,000
missions and flesh them out and

1411
01:07:30,599 --> 01:07:28,900
demonstrate to readers oh this is how it

1412
01:07:31,920 --> 01:07:30,609
worked in the sixties and seventies in

1413
01:07:34,440 --> 01:07:31,930
the eighties right you can see all of

1414
01:07:35,849 --> 01:07:34,450
that and then you begin to realize as

1415
01:07:38,519 --> 01:07:35,859
you move through the war on terror and

1416
01:07:42,240 --> 01:07:38,529
to where we are today you perhaps are

1417
01:07:44,220 --> 01:07:42,250
looking at different events that go on

1418
01:07:47,309 --> 01:07:44,230
in the world with a little bit of a

1419
01:07:49,049 --> 01:07:47,319
different eye again you have to you have

1420
01:07:51,990 --> 01:07:49,059
to draw your own conclusions because

1421
01:07:57,660 --> 01:07:52,000
only time will tell us what what the

1422
01:08:00,180 --> 01:07:57,670
actual how that outcome unfolded the the

1423
01:08:03,029 --> 01:08:00,190
other part of this were you had stated a

1424
01:08:08,460 --> 01:08:03,039
few times now that because of this

1425
01:08:09,210 --> 01:08:08,470
directive 50 that it is completely legal

1426
01:08:11,790 --> 01:08:09,220
and

1427
01:08:12,480 --> 01:08:11,800
if the president has a capture or kill

1428
01:08:19,920 --> 01:08:12,490
list

1429
01:08:21,360 --> 01:08:19,930
there isn't anything for them to worry

1430
01:08:24,450 --> 01:08:21,370
about I'm talking about the pair of

1431
01:08:28,519 --> 01:08:24,460
military forces they know that they are

1432
01:08:31,920 --> 01:08:28,529
allowed to do the ultimate to make this

1433
01:08:33,360 --> 01:08:31,930
mission successful and that's it so they

1434
01:08:36,900 --> 01:08:33,370
don't have that weighing on their

1435
01:08:38,309 --> 01:08:36,910
conscience do they absolutely but it

1436
01:08:40,050 --> 01:08:38,319
gets a little tricky sometimes so let me

1437
01:08:42,360 --> 01:08:40,060
tell you about Billy Ross so for example

1438
01:08:46,800 --> 01:08:42,370
he's what's called a singleton okay so

1439
01:08:50,370 --> 01:08:46,810
he works mostly alone now he was a Mac V

1440
01:08:52,590 --> 01:08:50,380
SOG paramilitary and actually military

1441
01:08:55,800 --> 01:08:52,600
operator during the Vietnam War and did

1442
01:08:57,599 --> 01:08:55,810
hundreds of cross border missions he was

1443
01:08:59,670 --> 01:08:57,609
in charge of the mission to kill the

1444
01:09:02,340 --> 01:08:59,680
general of the North Vietnamese army

1445
01:09:04,019 --> 01:09:02,350
general giap right so his training was

1446
01:09:07,890 --> 01:09:04,029
extraordinary and then you go all the

1447
01:09:10,019 --> 01:09:07,900
way he's now moved toward moved decades

1448
01:09:13,320 --> 01:09:10,029
through to the 1990s and he's given a

1449
01:09:16,289 --> 01:09:13,330
mission to go to Sudan to find this

1450
01:09:18,300 --> 01:09:16,299
almost on you know a terrorist who's

1451
01:09:22,410 --> 01:09:18,310
just cropped up on the radar what's his

1452
01:09:25,559 --> 01:09:22,420
name Osama bin Laden it's 1992 and Billy

1453
01:09:28,499 --> 01:09:25,569
was in Sudan acting as a singleton so

1454
01:09:31,499 --> 01:09:28,509
his cover is that he's an old man on a

1455
01:09:34,349 --> 01:09:31,509
fitness craze so he's running he's

1456
01:09:37,140 --> 01:09:34,359
running around Sudan and um you know

1457
01:09:38,789 --> 01:09:37,150
jogging shorts and that what didn't work

1458
01:09:40,380 --> 01:09:38,799
he has the Sudanese after him and

1459
01:09:42,120 --> 01:09:40,390
another thing that the CIA did is so

1460
01:09:43,019 --> 01:09:42,130
they gave him a mask that made him look

1461
01:09:45,599 --> 01:09:43,029
like a black

1462
01:09:47,220 --> 01:09:45,609
Dinka tribesman he's wearing literally a

1463
01:09:49,680 --> 01:09:47,230
rubber mask with gloves and everything

1464
01:09:51,390 --> 01:09:49,690
driving around trying to conduct

1465
01:09:53,910 --> 01:09:51,400
surveillance on this unknown terrorist

1466
01:09:56,970 --> 01:09:53,920
named Osama bin Laden he finally takes

1467
01:10:00,930 --> 01:09:56,980
pictures of him the first ever that the

1468
01:10:02,910 --> 01:10:00,940
CIA had has been Laden in 1992 and now a

1469
01:10:05,810 --> 01:10:02,920
decision goes well what are we going to

1470
01:10:08,729 --> 01:10:05,820
do with him so a memo gets sent up to

1471
01:10:11,250 --> 01:10:08,739
President Clinton who was the only

1472
01:10:12,900 --> 01:10:11,260
president from my understanding of

1473
01:10:15,660 --> 01:10:12,910
interviewing all these people who

1474
01:10:18,030 --> 01:10:15,670
actually did not authorize targeted

1475
01:10:20,790 --> 01:10:18,040
killings so there's two versions of the

1476
01:10:22,200 --> 01:10:20,800
story Billy waz version is that it went

1477
01:10:23,160 --> 01:10:22,210
all the way to the president who said

1478
01:10:25,860 --> 01:10:23,170
don't ever ask me

1479
01:10:27,540 --> 01:10:25,870
this again and cofre black who is the

1480
01:10:29,340 --> 01:10:27,550
station chief of khartoum at the time

1481
01:10:30,419 --> 01:10:29,350
who I also interviewed said that's not

1482
01:10:33,660 --> 01:10:30,429
how it went down

1483
01:10:35,130 --> 01:10:33,670
I didn't even let that option go to the

1484
01:10:38,070 --> 01:10:35,140
president it simply went to the director

1485
01:10:40,890 --> 01:10:38,080
of the CIA who said no but what Billy

1486
01:10:44,100 --> 01:10:40,900
wall says he wanted to do was kill bin

1487
01:10:48,150 --> 01:10:44,110
Laden and then throw a man's body over

1488
01:10:50,910 --> 01:10:48,160
the wall of the Iranian embassy set off

1489
01:10:56,939 --> 01:10:50,920
a bunch of grenades get the press there

1490
01:11:00,479 --> 01:10:56,949
and blame it on the Iranians the kind of

1491
01:11:03,240 --> 01:11:00,489
world that we are talking about the I

1492
01:11:08,070 --> 01:11:03,250
did want to ask you I think we went

1493
01:11:11,450 --> 01:11:08,080
around this earlier when you are you

1494
01:11:15,630 --> 01:11:11,460
know speaking to these guys and you know

1495
01:11:19,709 --> 01:11:15,640
you know that they have killed like for

1496
01:11:23,060 --> 01:11:19,719
real like I mean paid to kill what what

1497
01:11:26,160 --> 01:11:23,070
is that like are you nervous

1498
01:11:28,350 --> 01:11:26,170
do they start to open up to you

1499
01:11:31,860 --> 01:11:28,360
you know what's that atmosphere like

1500
01:11:34,800 --> 01:11:31,870
that has to be well strange is the right

1501
01:11:40,979 --> 01:11:34,810
word I mean I do you have to watch what

1502
01:11:44,640 --> 01:11:40,989
you say or are you just wide open well I

1503
01:11:46,530 --> 01:11:44,650
really consider myself like the kind of

1504
01:11:48,570 --> 01:11:46,540
reporter that likes to get the human

1505
01:11:50,220 --> 01:11:48,580
story so information is really

1506
01:11:53,280 --> 01:11:50,230
interesting but I want to know what

1507
01:11:55,040 --> 01:11:53,290
makes people tick right and so spending

1508
01:11:57,300 --> 01:11:55,050
the most time I can with someone is

1509
01:11:59,490 --> 01:11:57,310
about that and I just reserve all

1510
01:12:01,650 --> 01:11:59,500
judgment on killing I mean you know that

1511
01:12:03,930 --> 01:12:01,660
someone on reddit said Billy law he

1512
01:12:06,750 --> 01:12:03,940
killed more people than cancer right but

1513
01:12:09,120 --> 01:12:06,760
Billy wall and I too kind of for me to

1514
01:12:12,840 --> 01:12:09,130
get a sense of him I suggested that we

1515
01:12:15,660 --> 01:12:12,850
go back to Vietnam which we did in 2017

1516
01:12:17,910 --> 01:12:15,670
together we flew to Vietnam to meet with

1517
01:12:21,510 --> 01:12:17,920
the son of general Giap I mean general

1518
01:12:24,090 --> 01:12:21,520
drop was higher on the kill list LBJ's

1519
01:12:26,580 --> 01:12:24,100
kill list then Ho Chi Minh himself may

1520
01:12:29,010 --> 01:12:26,590
that's how much the government wanted

1521
01:12:31,860 --> 01:12:29,020
general giap dead because he the whole

1522
01:12:34,380 --> 01:12:31,870
North Vietnamese army was led by him and

1523
01:12:36,600 --> 01:12:34,390
he was this charismatic leader while was

1524
01:12:38,490 --> 01:12:36,610
in charge of the mission to kill him

1525
01:12:39,959 --> 01:12:38,500
and I write about what was called Oscar

1526
01:12:41,700 --> 01:12:39,969
ate that was a codename for the

1527
01:12:45,510 --> 01:12:41,710
operation they had to cross the border

1528
01:12:48,030 --> 01:12:45,520
go behind enemy lines in Laos I mean all

1529
01:12:49,979 --> 01:12:48,040
these aircraft went down it turned very

1530
01:12:52,229 --> 01:12:49,989
quickly from a kill mission to a rescue

1531
01:12:54,240 --> 01:12:52,239
mission it was horrendous all kinds of

1532
01:12:55,950 --> 01:12:54,250
people died I mean it's just one of

1533
01:12:58,890 --> 01:12:55,960
those shocking stories reporting that

1534
01:13:02,580 --> 01:12:58,900
was like oh my god but here are billy

1535
01:13:04,950 --> 01:13:02,590
wall and i fifty years later going back

1536
01:13:07,470 --> 01:13:04,960
to Hanoi to meet with Jacques son at

1537
01:13:10,140 --> 01:13:07,480
shops house Mexico ho chi minh's

1538
01:13:12,600 --> 01:13:10,150
mausoleum in hanoi and me

1539
01:13:16,950 --> 01:13:12,610
not only was japa died at the ripe old

1540
01:13:19,080 --> 01:13:16,960
age of 103 just a few years before but

1541
01:13:21,870 --> 01:13:19,090
his son had arranged for us to meet with

1542
01:13:24,209 --> 01:13:21,880
jobs aide-de-camp a man named by the

1543
01:13:28,050 --> 01:13:24,219
name of Colonel Byung and we met with

1544
01:13:32,160 --> 01:13:28,060
Jang and he was in charge of killing law

1545
01:13:35,070 --> 01:13:32,170
and laws Mak v SOG colleagues and walk

1546
01:13:36,810 --> 01:13:35,080
killed many of his colleagues and so to

1547
01:13:39,689 --> 01:13:36,820
answer your question about what it all

1548
01:13:42,930 --> 01:13:39,699
this mean it was incredibly interesting

1549
01:13:45,629 --> 01:13:42,940
to listen to these two men former arch

1550
01:13:49,260 --> 01:13:45,639
enemy who had killed one another you

1551
01:13:51,720 --> 01:13:49,270
know each other's colleagues brutally as

1552
01:13:54,780 --> 01:13:51,730
I described in that mission and here

1553
01:13:57,990 --> 01:13:54,790
they are meeting without animosity 50

1554
01:14:01,530 --> 01:13:58,000
years later talking about what guerrilla

1555
01:14:03,810 --> 01:14:01,540
warfare is what it means and is it

1556
01:14:06,510 --> 01:14:03,820
necessary did they have a read about

1557
01:14:11,520 --> 01:14:06,520
that yeah did they have respect for each

1558
01:14:13,830 --> 01:14:11,530
other they were they met without enmity

1559
01:14:15,540 --> 01:14:13,840
I mean they were we were we were there's

1560
01:14:17,220 --> 01:14:15,550
an amazing photograph of it in the book

1561
01:14:21,120 --> 01:14:17,230
too because you can just see the body

1562
01:14:22,770 --> 01:14:21,130
language it's like you know I mean it

1563
01:14:25,260 --> 01:14:22,780
was remarkable as a historian I took

1564
01:14:27,899 --> 01:14:25,270
another trip with LA to Cuba because as

1565
01:14:29,280 --> 01:14:27,909
you may or may not know the CIA was

1566
01:14:31,439 --> 01:14:29,290
responsible for the killing of Che

1567
01:14:33,020 --> 01:14:31,449
Guevara and technically it was the

1568
01:14:35,609 --> 01:14:33,030
Bolivian Rangers who pulled the trigger

1569
01:14:37,590 --> 01:14:35,619
but standing there was a guy named Felix

1570
01:14:39,689 --> 01:14:37,600
Rodriguez in the photograph I have in

1571
01:14:41,629 --> 01:14:39,699
the book of the last photograph of chaid

1572
01:14:43,590 --> 01:14:41,639
minutes before he was executed and

1573
01:14:46,169 --> 01:14:43,600
Rodriguez was in charge of that mission

1574
01:14:49,169 --> 01:14:46,179
and I interviewed him for the book and

1575
01:14:50,400 --> 01:14:49,179
the reason that he was on the CIA's

1576
01:14:54,390 --> 01:14:50,410
killers was because he

1577
01:14:59,010 --> 01:14:54,400
advocating for nuclear war yeah let me

1578
01:15:02,520 --> 01:14:59,020
let me jump in I I read and studied the

1579
01:15:04,860 --> 01:15:02,530
last days of che and how the Bolivian

1580
01:15:07,410 --> 01:15:04,870
force has finally found him in that you

1581
01:15:11,400 --> 01:15:07,420
know in the jungle in that a you know

1582
01:15:15,090 --> 01:15:11,410
small house or whatever it was but there

1583
01:15:17,730 --> 01:15:15,100
was no talk at all about a CIA

1584
01:15:21,150 --> 01:15:17,740
involvement ever reading about it in

1585
01:15:23,370 --> 01:15:21,160
your book I have to step back and go is

1586
01:15:26,070 --> 01:15:23,380
there is is there isn't anything that

1587
01:15:28,230 --> 01:15:26,080
the CIA this level isn't involved in and

1588
01:15:32,130 --> 01:15:28,240
how they managed to keep it so

1589
01:15:34,820 --> 01:15:32,140
clandestine yes I mean it's remarkable

1590
01:15:38,400 --> 01:15:34,830
it really is and again

1591
01:15:41,790 --> 01:15:38,410
reserving moral judgment reading the

1592
01:15:45,780 --> 01:15:41,800
facts and then letting yourself come to

1593
01:15:49,230 --> 01:15:45,790
the conclusion at the end is quite an

1594
01:15:52,460 --> 01:15:49,240
experience I think because by the like

1595
01:15:59,010 --> 01:15:52,470
okay so to that end I went back to Cuba

1596
01:16:00,870 --> 01:15:59,020
with Billy LA and some other people who

1597
01:16:03,540 --> 01:16:00,880
had to remain nameless it's very

1598
01:16:05,850 --> 01:16:03,550
mysterious after I left I realized this

1599
01:16:08,750 --> 01:16:05,860
a CIA operation that I was like the

1600
01:16:12,300 --> 01:16:08,760
unwitting Patsy in I think maybe I was

1601
01:16:14,370 --> 01:16:12,310
last chapter but there we are and you

1602
01:16:16,470 --> 01:16:14,380
know what we're doing is we're going on

1603
01:16:23,300 --> 01:16:16,480
Billy waz last halo jump

1604
01:16:25,980 --> 01:16:23,310
okay so halo is a is a form of insertion

1605
01:16:27,330 --> 01:16:25,990
for a lot of CIA operators and also the

1606
01:16:30,240 --> 01:16:27,340
military and it stands for high altitude

1607
01:16:32,010 --> 01:16:30,250
low opening billy wall himself went on

1608
01:16:35,070 --> 01:16:32,020
the was on the first team that actually

1609
01:16:38,630 --> 01:16:35,080
ever did a halo jump in combat and that

1610
01:16:42,120 --> 01:16:38,640
was in vietnam they jumped into Laos and

1611
01:16:44,010 --> 01:16:42,130
so you know he's the legend because he

1612
01:16:47,070 --> 01:16:44,020
was on this first team and che guevara

1613
01:16:49,020 --> 01:16:47,080
son allegedly wants to halo jump with

1614
01:16:53,270 --> 01:16:49,030
billy wall which is why we're back there

1615
01:16:57,020 --> 01:16:53,280
in cuba doing this jump

1616
01:16:58,279 --> 01:16:57,030
and you know it was fascinating I mean I

1617
01:17:00,350 --> 01:16:58,289
don't wanna give too much away in the

1618
01:17:07,100 --> 01:17:00,360
book because it's like very interesting

1619
01:17:11,870 --> 01:17:07,110
but afterwards we went to the cigar club

1620
01:17:14,060 --> 01:17:11,880
where Ernesto Guevara is chasin and we

1621
01:17:16,339 --> 01:17:14,070
were his guests and we went to the cigar

1622
01:17:20,450 --> 01:17:16,349
club where his father Che Guevara and

1623
01:17:24,080 --> 01:17:20,460
Fidel Castro used to sit smoke cigars

1624
01:17:26,450 --> 01:17:24,090
and plot demise maybe even the atomic

1625
01:17:30,379 --> 01:17:26,460
demise of the United States of America

1626
01:17:31,879 --> 01:17:30,389
and there's famous photographs of that

1627
01:17:34,819 --> 01:17:31,889
and there and there we are sitting in

1628
01:17:38,299 --> 01:17:34,829
the same room talking about what it

1629
01:17:40,729 --> 01:17:38,309
meant to be what it means to you know

1630
01:17:43,939 --> 01:17:40,739
conduct guerrilla warfare and change

1631
01:17:46,549 --> 01:17:43,949
that and is it necessary after all these

1632
01:17:49,879 --> 01:17:46,559
years I mean it was remarkable let's

1633
01:17:51,979 --> 01:17:49,889
take a break and which we need to do but

1634
01:17:56,689 --> 01:17:51,989
when we come back can we talk some Tom

1635
01:17:58,939 --> 01:17:56,699
Clancy can we go there yeah yeah let's

1636
01:18:00,500 --> 01:17:58,949
to just that I guess tonight Andy

1637
01:18:03,020 --> 01:18:00,510
Jacobson we're talking about her new

1638
01:18:06,379 --> 01:18:03,030
book which is called surprise kill

1639
01:18:08,839 --> 01:18:06,389
vanish and it is it's an incredible read

1640
01:18:11,060 --> 01:18:08,849
and it is available over on Amazon the

1641
01:18:13,160 --> 01:18:11,070
links are at chimichurri datacom head

1642
01:18:14,990 --> 01:18:13,170
straight over to Annie's site it's great

1643
01:18:17,770 --> 01:18:15,000
we'll be right back after this short

1644
01:18:33,140 --> 01:18:30,909
[Music]

1645
01:18:35,419 --> 01:18:33,150
welcome back fade to black on the OSHA

1646
01:18:36,620 --> 01:18:35,429
Jimmy Church tonight Annie Jacobson

1647
01:18:39,199 --> 01:18:36,630
we're talking about her new book

1648
01:18:42,859 --> 01:18:39,209
surprise kill vanish you can get it on

1649
01:18:44,659 --> 01:18:42,869
Amazon and click on Handy's links over

1650
01:18:47,810 --> 01:18:44,669
it to maturity Oh calm it'll take you

1651
01:18:48,549 --> 01:18:47,820
straight there and Annie before we move

1652
01:18:57,709 --> 01:18:48,559
on

1653
01:19:00,799 --> 01:18:57,719
but how how do these guys get paid w2's

1654
01:19:03,020 --> 01:19:00,809
you know going to a car dealership and

1655
01:19:08,899 --> 01:19:03,030
you're filling out the credit app right

1656
01:19:12,799 --> 01:19:08,909
you get down to your employer this how

1657
01:19:14,089 --> 01:19:12,809
does that how does that go down so

1658
01:19:16,009 --> 01:19:14,099
there's there are two different ways

1659
01:19:17,929 --> 01:19:16,019
you're either a blue badger or a green

1660
01:19:20,149 --> 01:19:17,939
badger and blue badgers are CIA

1661
01:19:22,310 --> 01:19:20,159
employees so they get just paid through

1662
01:19:25,159 --> 01:19:22,320
the CIA they have CIA health insurance

1663
01:19:26,959 --> 01:19:25,169
okay right green badgers mean you work

1664
01:19:28,699 --> 01:19:26,969
on contract doesn't mean you're a

1665
01:19:31,870 --> 01:19:28,709
contractor you're not like Blackwater

1666
01:19:34,549 --> 01:19:31,880
you actually like Billy wah for example

1667
01:19:36,319 --> 01:19:34,559
some time he was a Blue badger but he

1668
01:19:37,520 --> 01:19:36,329
didn't like it because he didn't you

1669
01:19:40,189 --> 01:19:37,530
have to have an apartment in Washington

1670
01:19:42,560 --> 01:19:40,199
DC or have to you know you have to

1671
01:19:45,560 --> 01:19:42,570
behave like an employee and a lot of

1672
01:19:47,600 --> 01:19:45,570
these guys prefer to be on their own so

1673
01:19:49,549 --> 01:19:47,610
they can they can turn down jobs they

1674
01:19:52,250 --> 01:19:49,559
can live in Las Vegas or wherever they

1675
01:19:54,350 --> 01:19:52,260
want to live right and just be called

1676
01:19:57,549 --> 01:19:54,360
upon and then accept the mission and go

1677
01:20:00,620 --> 01:19:57,559
but the guys who are green badgers it's

1678
01:20:03,459 --> 01:20:00,630
very interesting about the payment

1679
01:20:07,370 --> 01:20:03,469
because for example one person I was

1680
01:20:08,659 --> 01:20:07,380
discussing this with said he had to it

1681
01:20:10,850 --> 01:20:08,669
was a real problem when he got a lot of

1682
01:20:12,620 --> 01:20:10,860
it you know just by chance in other

1683
01:20:14,390 --> 01:20:12,630
words like you know you could just

1684
01:20:15,439 --> 01:20:14,400
easily get audited like they pull your

1685
01:20:19,370 --> 01:20:15,449
number up they're like oh let's look at

1686
01:20:21,799 --> 01:20:19,380
this guy and he there was you cannot

1687
01:20:24,830 --> 01:20:21,809
ever reveal that you work for this for

1688
01:20:29,179 --> 01:20:24,840
the CIA and so you have to provide all

1689
01:20:32,839 --> 01:20:29,189
this paperwork that is essentially not

1690
01:20:39,409 --> 01:20:32,849
what it says it is that must be the

1691
01:20:41,000 --> 01:20:39,419
crazy as 1099 right imagine I can't I

1692
01:20:42,050 --> 01:20:41,010
mean here's another one on that note

1693
01:20:44,890 --> 01:20:42,060
even more into

1694
01:20:48,230 --> 01:20:44,900
King his gunshot wounds okay because

1695
01:20:49,760 --> 01:20:48,240
like a guy I know had a gunshot wound

1696
01:20:51,860 --> 01:20:49,770
all these guys get wounded and his

1697
01:20:55,070 --> 01:20:51,870
gunshot wound so when he's over in

1698
01:20:56,660 --> 01:20:55,080
Afghanistan he's treated by you know CIA

1699
01:20:58,250 --> 01:20:56,670
doctors and medical and you know

1700
01:21:01,220 --> 01:20:58,260
military doctors because they're almost

1701
01:21:03,140 --> 01:21:01,230
always on bases that are they're all

1702
01:21:04,670 --> 01:21:03,150
they're on a military base and they're

1703
01:21:06,230 --> 01:21:04,680
just have their own section you know

1704
01:21:08,360 --> 01:21:06,240
it's like oh that's the area we don't go

1705
01:21:11,570 --> 01:21:08,370
right right the agency guide the ground

1706
01:21:14,780 --> 01:21:11,580
branch guys but his gunshot wound got

1707
01:21:23,350 --> 01:21:14,790
infected and so he's back in the United

1708
01:21:33,770 --> 01:21:30,890
is that crazy and then when it's Annie

1709
01:21:41,210 --> 01:21:33,780
let me jump in you just dropped out and

1710
01:21:45,670 --> 01:21:41,220
went silent that was crazy that that

1711
01:21:58,100 --> 01:21:45,680
okay okay it just picked up right now

1712
01:22:00,740 --> 01:21:58,110
that we got interrupted interrupted and

1713
01:22:04,130 --> 01:22:00,750
there was a beep there was a beep you

1714
01:22:06,080 --> 01:22:04,140
need to go back and listen to this after

1715
01:22:09,350 --> 01:22:06,090
the show okay you might get a phone call

1716
01:22:11,510 --> 01:22:09,360
yeah yeah you you might get a phone call

1717
01:22:14,420 --> 01:22:11,520
after the show we took we went a bridge

1718
01:22:16,070 --> 01:22:14,430
too far a bridge too far all right I

1719
01:22:18,650 --> 01:22:16,080
wrote this in the book I mean I you know

1720
01:22:19,820 --> 01:22:18,660
it's an interesting detail okay let's go

1721
01:22:22,790 --> 01:22:19,830
you have to repeat it

1722
01:22:24,200 --> 01:22:22,800
okay so let's go okay so did you what

1723
01:22:27,860 --> 01:22:24,210
part of the gunshot wound did you hear

1724
01:22:29,990 --> 01:22:27,870
it got infected okay so the gunshot

1725
01:22:31,670 --> 01:22:30,000
wound gets infected and the guy comes

1726
01:22:34,070 --> 01:22:31,680
back home you know you get treated on a

1727
01:22:36,440 --> 01:22:34,080
military base right because the CIA's

1728
01:22:38,810 --> 01:22:36,450
bases are always on a military base you

1729
01:22:40,490 --> 01:22:38,820
just regular people can't go there so

1730
01:22:43,640 --> 01:22:40,500
you're treated by them by the military

1731
01:22:45,110 --> 01:22:43,650
doctors and then when when this

1732
01:22:46,580 --> 01:22:45,120
individual came back to the United

1733
01:22:48,890 --> 01:22:46,590
States and it happens to a lot of people

1734
01:22:50,660 --> 01:22:48,900
they if they're wound gets infected they

1735
01:22:52,370 --> 01:22:50,670
go to the local doctor here in the

1736
01:22:55,930 --> 01:22:52,380
United States and the doctor is required

1737
01:22:58,189 --> 01:22:55,940
by law to report a gunshot wound

1738
01:22:59,479 --> 01:22:58,199
so they have to say well how did you get

1739
01:23:02,209 --> 01:22:59,489
this gunshot wound and the guy says I

1740
01:23:05,660 --> 01:23:02,219
had a hunting accident okay fine

1741
01:23:07,939 --> 01:23:05,670
right that's fine the first time how

1742
01:23:11,209 --> 01:23:07,949
many hunting trips are you going on sir

1743
01:23:14,750 --> 01:23:11,219
that you get shot every single time and

1744
01:23:19,419 --> 01:23:14,760
you're here in my office yes

1745
01:23:22,520 --> 01:23:19,429
and what and speaking of care what about

1746
01:23:24,979 --> 01:23:22,530
psychiatrist right do these guys hit the

1747
01:23:27,729 --> 01:23:24,989
couch and how does the psychiatrist deal

1748
01:23:33,410 --> 01:23:27,739
with this or or do they see a company

1749
01:23:35,660 --> 01:23:33,420
psychiatrist I have seen medical records

1750
01:23:37,520 --> 01:23:35,670
on a lot of people because that's

1751
01:23:40,370 --> 01:23:37,530
something I have to authenticate people

1752
01:23:43,610 --> 01:23:40,380
right and I also authenticate injuries

1753
01:23:47,209 --> 01:23:43,620
right and just as due diligence on my

1754
01:23:50,899 --> 01:23:47,219
part I don't report that but I have seen

1755
01:23:57,260 --> 01:23:50,909
and I did I have seen you know PTSD

1756
01:24:01,540 --> 01:23:57,270
related psychiatric situations but it's

1757
01:24:03,770 --> 01:24:01,550
pretty clear to me that the doctor knows

1758
01:24:07,040 --> 01:24:03,780
like for example let's just say you're

1759
01:24:09,379 --> 01:24:07,050
retired Delta okay so you're retired

1760
01:24:14,570 --> 01:24:09,389
from Delta but you're back in

1761
01:24:16,760 --> 01:24:14,580
Afghanistan so perhaps the doctor thinks

1762
01:24:18,530 --> 01:24:16,770
they're working for Blackwater right it

1763
01:24:19,879 --> 01:24:18,540
usually says this individual is involved

1764
01:24:25,090 --> 01:24:19,889
in some of the most extreme combat

1765
01:24:30,919 --> 01:24:25,100
situations that caused XY and Z so they

1766
01:24:32,930 --> 01:24:30,929
because they're retired military VA is

1767
01:24:35,330 --> 01:24:32,940
available to them but it also does get

1768
01:24:38,020 --> 01:24:35,340
tricky with green badgers because it's

1769
01:24:43,970 --> 01:24:38,030
not as available and there is some

1770
01:24:45,560 --> 01:24:43,980
discussion of um you know that's oblique

1771
01:24:47,360 --> 01:24:45,570
but you know it's reminding me right now

1772
01:24:49,430 --> 01:24:47,370
of another thing going back to area 51

1773
01:24:50,840 --> 01:24:49,440
right because this it's interesting how

1774
01:24:53,240 --> 01:24:50,850
this is kind of endemic to the whole

1775
01:24:55,939 --> 01:24:53,250
world of secrecy because uh there was a

1776
01:25:00,110 --> 01:24:55,949
nuclear weapons engineer I interviewed

1777
01:25:02,950 --> 01:25:00,120
for area 51 and he was on a couple tests

1778
01:25:05,930 --> 01:25:02,960
that allegedly didn't happen right and

1779
01:25:08,810 --> 01:25:05,940
so when he went to his doctor and was

1780
01:25:12,740 --> 01:25:08,820
like I got radiation poisoning in

1781
01:25:14,810 --> 01:25:12,750
was trying to you know he there was a I

1782
01:25:17,300 --> 01:25:14,820
saw the medical records that said this

1783
01:25:20,030 --> 01:25:17,310
guy may be imagining kind of I'm

1784
01:25:22,640 --> 01:25:20,040
paraphrasing right but it was like wow

1785
01:25:27,050 --> 01:25:22,650
so this is a problem that is historical

1786
01:25:28,220 --> 01:25:27,060
I just got this email in I'm not gonna

1787
01:25:30,649 --> 01:25:28,230
say who it was from

1788
01:25:32,479 --> 01:25:30,659
but he says Jimmy great show tonight I

1789
01:25:36,290 --> 01:25:32,489
worked with Annie's friend Billy wall

1790
01:25:38,660 --> 01:25:36,300
for about ten years on his website and

1791
01:25:40,160 --> 01:25:38,670
book project and I'm not going to

1792
01:25:44,359 --> 01:25:40,170
continue with that part of it but he

1793
01:25:46,459 --> 01:25:44,369
does say never met a nicer more

1794
01:25:48,919 --> 01:25:46,469
down-to-earth man it was such a pleasure

1795
01:25:52,189 --> 01:25:48,929
and an honor working with him I still

1796
01:25:53,990 --> 01:25:52,199
stay in touch so I wanted to share that

1797
01:25:56,089 --> 01:25:54,000
with you there were some details in

1798
01:25:58,910 --> 01:25:56,099
there I couldn't I couldn't read over

1799
01:26:00,680 --> 01:25:58,920
the air and now this is this is the

1800
01:26:05,000 --> 01:26:00,690
other part that I find so interesting is

1801
01:26:08,390 --> 01:26:05,010
that Jack Ryan the new series is

1802
01:26:12,530 --> 01:26:08,400
incredible listening to you now and the

1803
01:26:15,950 --> 01:26:12,540
similarities about what is happening in

1804
01:26:19,339 --> 01:26:15,960
the series Jack Ryan it's all becoming

1805
01:26:21,939 --> 01:26:19,349
you know very clear to me but you were a

1806
01:26:26,450 --> 01:26:21,949
producer on the show too weren't you

1807
01:26:30,109 --> 01:26:26,460
yes I'm a writer producer so a lot of

1808
01:26:32,780 --> 01:26:30,119
times on a lot of the storylines I was

1809
01:26:36,859 --> 01:26:32,790
brought in also as what's called us me a

1810
01:26:38,839 --> 01:26:36,869
subject matter expert okay so Jack Lyon

1811
01:26:41,240 --> 01:26:38,849
is in essence a CIA paramilitary

1812
01:26:45,770 --> 01:26:41,250
operator he goes from being a deaf guy

1813
01:26:47,780 --> 01:26:45,780
an analyst into you know the world and

1814
01:26:49,850 --> 01:26:47,790
the second season which will air soon

1815
01:26:51,950 --> 01:26:49,860
and I can't say much about it but he

1816
01:26:56,240 --> 01:26:51,960
goes full paramilitary let's just say

1817
01:27:01,970 --> 01:26:56,250
right and I would sometimes have some of

1818
01:27:05,689 --> 01:27:01,980
my sources to Skype into the writers

1819
01:27:07,220 --> 01:27:05,699
room and go over operations with us

1820
01:27:08,419 --> 01:27:07,230
because it was very interesting Oh

1821
01:27:09,859 --> 01:27:08,429
sometimes the writers are like let's do

1822
01:27:11,660 --> 01:27:09,869
this let's do that and it's like what's

1823
01:27:14,450 --> 01:27:11,670
the real authentic thing and I would say

1824
01:27:16,459 --> 01:27:14,460
let's get so-and-so on on the call with

1825
01:27:18,830 --> 01:27:16,469
us and that it just made it

1826
01:27:21,149 --> 01:27:18,840
extraordinary for us as writers you know

1827
01:27:25,109 --> 01:27:21,159
for the writers room people like

1828
01:27:29,250 --> 01:27:25,119
to hear the real walk the talk talk the

1829
01:27:33,209 --> 01:27:29,260
talk and also I think there's an

1830
01:27:35,429 --> 01:27:33,219
appreciation on the other side of you

1831
01:27:41,189 --> 01:27:35,439
know for the operators themselves who

1832
01:27:43,589 --> 01:27:41,199
love Hollywood the the realism in in

1833
01:27:45,779 --> 01:27:43,599
Jack Ryan and I'm specifically talking

1834
01:27:47,909 --> 01:27:45,789
about the series

1835
01:27:50,459 --> 01:27:47,919
it seems frightening at times and

1836
01:27:53,310 --> 01:27:50,469
certainly what's the stars name that

1837
01:27:54,869 --> 01:27:53,320
plays Jack Ryan help me John John

1838
01:27:58,409 --> 01:27:54,879
Krasinski yeah that's right John

1839
01:28:01,109 --> 01:27:58,419
Krasinski he's going through a lot

1840
01:28:04,349 --> 01:28:01,119
mentally and he's questioning a lot of

1841
01:28:06,239 --> 01:28:04,359
things but it sounds like it's it's

1842
01:28:07,949 --> 01:28:06,249
coming from the real world and the

1843
01:28:09,179 --> 01:28:07,959
audience is watching this thinking how

1844
01:28:12,569 --> 01:28:09,189
it's just fiction it's it's

1845
01:28:16,169 --> 01:28:12,579
entertainment but it's it's pretty

1846
01:28:18,270 --> 01:28:16,179
accurate isn't it yes and you know I

1847
01:28:20,580 --> 01:28:18,280
give a lot of credit to our to our

1848
01:28:23,489 --> 01:28:20,590
creators and showrunners Carlton Cuse

1849
01:28:26,159 --> 01:28:23,499
and Graham Mullins so Graham himself as

1850
01:28:28,649 --> 01:28:26,169
a former Marine and Carlton is just a

1851
01:28:32,189 --> 01:28:28,659
veteran Hollywood you know professional

1852
01:28:35,099 --> 01:28:32,199
who always makes sure that everything is

1853
01:28:37,830 --> 01:28:35,109
extraordinarily accurate he was one of

1854
01:28:40,679 --> 01:28:37,840
the creators of lost and many shows

1855
01:28:45,659 --> 01:28:40,689
since and so Carlton made sure we had

1856
01:28:47,699 --> 01:28:45,669
other CIA subject matter experts you

1857
01:28:51,659 --> 01:28:47,709
know in the financial end of things

1858
01:28:54,060 --> 01:28:51,669
because because Jack Ryan is a it comes

1859
01:28:57,089 --> 01:28:54,070
comes with a sort of financial analysis

1860
01:28:59,119 --> 01:28:57,099
background and Carlton made sure that we

1861
01:29:02,310 --> 01:28:59,129
had all those bases covered and I think

1862
01:29:06,449 --> 01:29:02,320
that's interesting and worthwhile

1863
01:29:08,580 --> 01:29:06,459
because people are really savvy to the

1864
01:29:12,899 --> 01:29:08,590
and they want to feel like they are

1865
01:29:16,500 --> 01:29:12,909
getting you know they're getting a

1866
01:29:20,879 --> 01:29:16,510
window of truth in what is clearly a

1867
01:29:23,129 --> 01:29:20,889
fictional world is the CIA involved

1868
01:29:24,689 --> 01:29:23,139
their entertainment division are they

1869
01:29:29,009 --> 01:29:24,699
involved in Jack Ryan

1870
01:29:30,750 --> 01:29:29,019
do they have consultants to god no I

1871
01:29:32,639 --> 01:29:30,760
mean do they have I don't even know if

1872
01:29:34,020 --> 01:29:32,649
the CIA has an entertainment division I

1873
01:29:34,830 --> 01:29:34,030
would call that it's you know in

1874
01:29:37,109 --> 01:29:34,840
influenza

1875
01:29:43,770 --> 01:29:37,119
operation division but no I'm you know

1876
01:29:46,859 --> 01:29:43,780
they they I know that they were not they

1877
01:29:50,120 --> 01:29:46,869
were they were friendly to to the

1878
01:29:53,939 --> 01:29:50,130
production right because we tried to

1879
01:29:55,620 --> 01:29:53,949
portray it on the access of what it is

1880
01:29:58,649 --> 01:29:55,630
and not you know it's not a show it's

1881
01:30:01,680 --> 01:29:58,659
not like it's not homeland you know it's

1882
01:30:04,470 --> 01:30:01,690
not it's not like the rogue CIA I mean

1883
01:30:07,410 --> 01:30:04,480
in in many regards Tom Clancy's Jack

1884
01:30:09,689 --> 01:30:07,420
Ryan is kind of a good old boy you know

1885
01:30:11,910 --> 01:30:09,699
he's a very red white and blue American

1886
01:30:14,970 --> 01:30:11,920
and he has been since the 80s and that

1887
01:30:19,760 --> 01:30:14,980
was very Clancy Clancy by the way hat

1888
01:30:22,410 --> 01:30:19,770
Tom Clancy had a had a real in with

1889
01:30:24,300 --> 01:30:22,420
skunkworks and when I've got that

1890
01:30:28,109 --> 01:30:24,310
banquet I mentioned earlier when the

1891
01:30:31,500 --> 01:30:28,119
f-117 was being retired right that was

1892
01:30:33,300 --> 01:30:31,510
discussed how the only person who didn't

1893
01:30:35,399 --> 01:30:33,310
have a top-secret clearance you ever

1894
01:30:38,430 --> 01:30:35,409
kind of got maybe a little whisper of

1895
01:30:41,399 --> 01:30:38,440
something was Tom Clancy and he would

1896
01:30:44,430 --> 01:30:41,409
get a whisper of a under the guise of it

1897
01:30:46,649 --> 01:30:44,440
being fiction but that is a if you look

1898
01:30:50,180 --> 01:30:46,659
at Tom Clancy's books in the 80s you

1899
01:30:52,950 --> 01:30:50,190
realize he knew a lot about you know

1900
01:30:54,689 --> 01:30:52,960
espionage and overhead espionage and

1901
01:30:58,320 --> 01:30:54,699
technology platforms and weapon systems

1902
01:31:01,229 --> 01:30:58,330
and that was because he got whispered

1903
01:31:02,339 --> 01:31:01,239
things quote-unquote fictionally by guys

1904
01:31:07,459 --> 01:31:02,349
at Lockheed skunkworks

1905
01:31:10,350 --> 01:31:07,469
I'm on the official CIA dock of website

1906
01:31:16,500 --> 01:31:10,360
right here entered an entertainment

1907
01:31:20,640 --> 01:31:16,510
industry division right here it's yeah

1908
01:31:22,830 --> 01:31:20,650
it's a pretty interesting yeah yeah I'm

1909
01:31:24,629 --> 01:31:22,840
good for this once in a while but it

1910
01:31:26,430 --> 01:31:24,639
says right here as an organization that

1911
01:31:28,560 --> 01:31:26,440
plays a key role in America's defense

1912
01:31:30,990 --> 01:31:28,570
the CIA is a frequent subject of books

1913
01:31:33,330 --> 01:31:31,000
motion pictures documentaries and other

1914
01:31:35,700 --> 01:31:33,340
creative ventures for years artists from

1915
01:31:36,870 --> 01:31:35,710
across the entertainment industry actors

1916
01:31:38,760 --> 01:31:36,880
authors directors producers

1917
01:31:40,410 --> 01:31:38,770
screenwriters and others have been in

1918
01:31:41,970 --> 01:31:40,420
touch with the CIA to gain better

1919
01:31:44,879 --> 01:31:41,980
understanding of our intelligence

1920
01:31:46,290 --> 01:31:44,889
mission and and it's right here if you

1921
01:31:48,419 --> 01:31:46,300
are part of the entertainment industry

1922
01:31:48,730 --> 01:31:48,429
and are working on a project that deals

1923
01:31:53,670 --> 01:31:48,740
with

1924
01:31:57,550 --> 01:31:53,680
CIA the agency may be able to help you

1925
01:31:59,290 --> 01:31:57,560
great or 30 blah blah blah but yeah yeah

1926
01:32:04,270 --> 01:31:59,300
they've got an entertainment division

1927
01:32:06,160 --> 01:32:04,280
right there at Langley so yeah yeah it

1928
01:32:08,530 --> 01:32:06,170
is I've always found that fascinating

1929
01:32:13,020 --> 01:32:08,540
and I'm always reticent to click on that

1930
01:32:16,450 --> 01:32:13,030
link you know for the obvious reasons

1931
01:32:19,810 --> 01:32:16,460
but how when it comes to Tom Clancy and

1932
01:32:22,480 --> 01:32:19,820
I and I realize that he has got his

1933
01:32:26,800 --> 01:32:22,490
inside sources but his stuff is so

1934
01:32:29,770 --> 01:32:26,810
accurate and when I watch but you know

1935
01:32:33,100 --> 01:32:29,780
like the new series Jack Ryan is it too

1936
01:32:35,320 --> 01:32:33,110
accurate sometimes is there do you ever

1937
01:32:40,630 --> 01:32:35,330
get the feeling that tom is giving the

1938
01:32:42,820 --> 01:32:40,640
other side ideas you know what I mean if

1939
01:32:47,770 --> 01:32:42,830
you are going to do something crazy tom

1940
01:32:50,320 --> 01:32:47,780
tells you how to do it in the book well

1941
01:32:52,390 --> 01:32:50,330
I mean of course he's died now so it's

1942
01:32:55,060 --> 01:32:52,400
his ghost you know his follow along

1943
01:32:59,290 --> 01:32:55,070
writers I mean are you saying is it too

1944
01:33:03,280 --> 01:32:59,300
close to accurate yeah I mean how to do

1945
01:33:07,180 --> 01:33:03,290
bad things you know whether it is you

1946
01:33:09,130 --> 01:33:07,190
know some some operation against you

1947
01:33:11,440 --> 01:33:09,140
know the Navy or the military or a

1948
01:33:14,560 --> 01:33:11,450
civilian airline or you know to commit

1949
01:33:16,870 --> 01:33:14,570
these terrorist acts it it's it's

1950
01:33:21,880 --> 01:33:16,880
spelled out so clearly in the book it's

1951
01:33:24,460 --> 01:33:21,890
like giving somebody a road map well I

1952
01:33:26,020 --> 01:33:24,470
mean I think that that's the CIA's job

1953
01:33:27,850 --> 01:33:26,030
is to be ahead of that curve in other

1954
01:33:30,640 --> 01:33:27,860
words what's that famous line right

1955
01:33:34,000 --> 01:33:30,650
after 9/11 that I believe it was the CIA

1956
01:33:35,920 --> 01:33:34,010
or maybe it was the FBI someone said we

1957
01:33:41,140 --> 01:33:35,930
concede this was a failure of

1958
01:33:43,030 --> 01:33:41,150
imagination so you have to be able to

1959
01:33:46,630 --> 01:33:43,040
imagine things and I think that's what

1960
01:33:49,300 --> 01:33:46,640
people in Hollywood do I mean as I write

1961
01:33:52,950 --> 01:33:49,310
in my book on DARPA which is called the

1962
01:33:56,290 --> 01:33:52,960
Pentagon's brain after 9/11 DARPA hired

1963
01:33:59,190 --> 01:33:56,300
Hollywood screenwriters to try and come

1964
01:34:01,420 --> 01:33:59,200
up with the most preposterous most evil

1965
01:34:02,350 --> 01:34:01,430
terrorist attacks they could come up

1966
01:34:04,899 --> 01:34:02,360
with

1967
01:34:06,729 --> 01:34:04,909
so that DARPA could build weapons to

1968
01:34:09,700 --> 01:34:06,739
defend against them and that was

1969
01:34:12,580 --> 01:34:09,710
probably a wise move because like you

1970
01:34:13,959 --> 01:34:12,590
said Tom Clancy famously imagined

1971
01:34:18,700 --> 01:34:13,969
terrorists flying planes into buildings

1972
01:34:23,439 --> 01:34:18,710
and then Osama bin Laden let that Reagan

1973
01:34:26,200 --> 01:34:23,449
so whatever you can think of you should

1974
01:34:31,270 --> 01:34:26,210
probably know darn well how to defend

1975
01:34:34,140 --> 01:34:31,280
against the your book phenomena am i

1976
01:34:36,370 --> 01:34:34,150
under the impression that this is

1977
01:34:41,020 --> 01:34:36,380
heading towards television or the big

1978
01:34:42,820 --> 01:34:41,030
screen it is hopefully I mean all of my

1979
01:34:45,760 --> 01:34:42,830
books like all of a lot of people's

1980
01:34:48,609 --> 01:34:45,770
books wind up in in what is called

1981
01:34:51,850 --> 01:34:48,619
development and there's you know these

1982
01:34:55,479 --> 01:34:51,860
long periods of time working diligently

1983
01:34:56,890 --> 01:34:55,489
to try and get something Greenland you

1984
01:35:00,280 --> 01:34:56,900
know where it's actually filmed I mean I

1985
01:35:02,590 --> 01:35:00,290
worked for years with Chris Carter and

1986
01:35:06,780 --> 01:35:02,600
Gale Anne Hurd who works on The Walking

1987
01:35:09,970 --> 01:35:06,790
Dead to get area51 to the screen and

1988
01:35:11,950 --> 01:35:09,980
that did not happen and and the rights

1989
01:35:15,030 --> 01:35:11,960
came back to me on that book so these

1990
01:35:17,709 --> 01:35:15,040
things Evan flow as four phenomena

1991
01:35:22,600 --> 01:35:17,719
Steven Spielberg's company called Amblin

1992
01:35:24,609 --> 01:35:22,610
and Blum house Jason Blum's company that

1993
01:35:26,200 --> 01:35:24,619
and they're famous for doing a lot of

1994
01:35:29,350 --> 01:35:26,210
horror movies but also a lot of other

1995
01:35:31,899 --> 01:35:29,360
great films and TV now they they teamed

1996
01:35:35,649 --> 01:35:31,909
up Hamblin and Blum house have the

1997
01:35:38,979 --> 01:35:35,659
license on phenomena and I'm working on

1998
01:35:40,840 --> 01:35:38,989
the show with a veteran TV writer

1999
01:35:43,750 --> 01:35:40,850
director named Glen Morgan of the

2000
01:35:45,399 --> 01:35:43,760
x-files and we're hoping that that will

2001
01:35:48,220 --> 01:35:45,409
make it to the big you know to the

2002
01:35:49,780 --> 01:35:48,230
little screen but again these things you

2003
01:35:51,850 --> 01:35:49,790
know you can cross your fingers and jump

2004
01:35:54,220 --> 01:35:51,860
up and down and work hard and write hard

2005
01:35:57,250 --> 01:35:54,230
but these things all have a life of

2006
01:35:59,890 --> 01:35:57,260
their own and I sure hope it has a long

2007
01:36:01,840 --> 01:35:59,900
life well when they when they come to

2008
01:36:04,990 --> 01:36:01,850
you because of your experience and who

2009
01:36:07,510 --> 01:36:05,000
you've interviewed and and the broad you

2010
01:36:09,209 --> 01:36:07,520
I mean you've covered so much of the

2011
01:36:12,520 --> 01:36:09,219
military and the Pentagon and the CIA

2012
01:36:15,520 --> 01:36:12,530
that surely as a consultant is one thing

2013
01:36:17,890 --> 01:36:15,530
but to be a writer is another

2014
01:36:20,740 --> 01:36:17,900
and so when they you know to write for

2015
01:36:25,140 --> 01:36:20,750
film and television so for like Jack

2016
01:36:27,490 --> 01:36:25,150
Ryan when they come to you do they have

2017
01:36:29,530 --> 01:36:27,500
do they have something on the screen

2018
01:36:32,110 --> 01:36:29,540
where you're gonna consult and say yes

2019
01:36:34,420 --> 01:36:32,120
that's right or wrong or do they come to

2020
01:36:36,820 --> 01:36:34,430
you with an idea for something and

2021
01:36:40,390 --> 01:36:36,830
you're actually writing from your

2022
01:36:42,640 --> 01:36:40,400
experience how does that work so it's

2023
01:36:44,590 --> 01:36:42,650
the job of the creator's this is kind of

2024
01:36:47,590 --> 01:36:44,600
like the short version of it okay the

2025
01:36:49,210 --> 01:36:47,600
job of the creators to decide what that

2026
01:36:50,830 --> 01:36:49,220
show is going to be and then what the

2027
01:36:53,320 --> 01:36:50,840
pilot which is the first episode is

2028
01:36:54,790 --> 01:36:53,330
going to be so on phenomena I'm in

2029
01:36:56,650 --> 01:36:54,800
charge of that with my partner Glen

2030
01:36:59,230 --> 01:36:56,660
Morgan we decide the show where work you

2031
01:37:02,320 --> 01:36:59,240
know that's in Jack Ryan that was Colton

2032
01:37:05,710 --> 01:37:02,330
and Graham so they created the show

2033
01:37:07,450 --> 01:37:05,720
created the idea decided who this new

2034
01:37:10,210 --> 01:37:07,460
Jack Ryan was going to be who the enemy

2035
01:37:12,940 --> 01:37:10,220
was going to be how it was going to look

2036
01:37:15,970 --> 01:37:12,950
and feel kind of in big picture and then

2037
01:37:18,850 --> 01:37:15,980
the show was was greenlit by Amazon

2038
01:37:21,430 --> 01:37:18,860
Studios and Paramount who owns the

2039
01:37:25,330 --> 01:37:21,440
license to tom clancy's Jack Ryan and

2040
01:37:27,370 --> 01:37:25,340
then the show became a show and I was

2041
01:37:28,900 --> 01:37:27,380
brought on along with you know I think

2042
01:37:31,150 --> 01:37:28,910
they're like five or six other writers

2043
01:37:34,360 --> 01:37:31,160
and we all sat in what's called the

2044
01:37:37,480 --> 01:37:34,370
writers room and we mapped out the whole

2045
01:37:40,750 --> 01:37:37,490
eight or ten episodes of the season it's

2046
01:37:43,450 --> 01:37:40,760
this incredible process like very

2047
01:37:46,600 --> 01:37:43,460
creative and you know especially coming

2048
01:37:49,120 --> 01:37:46,610
from from me being writing books where

2049
01:37:51,400 --> 01:37:49,130
it's like a one-woman show in my office

2050
01:37:54,190 --> 01:37:51,410
by myself day in and day out cranking

2051
01:37:58,720 --> 01:37:54,200
out a four or five hundred page book by

2052
01:38:03,130 --> 01:37:58,730
yourself TV writing is like this this

2053
01:38:05,860 --> 01:38:03,140
wild ride of a group effort and then you

2054
01:38:07,540 --> 01:38:05,870
you know go go off and kind of work on

2055
01:38:09,220 --> 01:38:07,550
your own script and every you know or

2056
01:38:11,490 --> 01:38:09,230
with a partner work on a script but it's

2057
01:38:16,240 --> 01:38:11,500
much more collaborative and creative

2058
01:38:19,360 --> 01:38:16,250
than writing books I've got a ton of

2059
01:38:23,200 --> 01:38:19,370
questions that I didn't get to from the

2060
01:38:25,720 --> 01:38:23,210
audience tonight but one I do want to

2061
01:38:25,930 --> 01:38:25,730
ask you before we say goodnight and this

2062
01:38:30,130 --> 01:38:25,940
is

2063
01:38:34,750 --> 01:38:30,140
please ask Annie

2064
01:38:38,820 --> 01:38:34,760
in her book area 51 on page 381 she

2065
01:38:43,060 --> 01:38:38,830
mentions the EG&G guys discussed Roswell

2066
01:38:50,950 --> 01:38:43,070
Roswell wreckage at s4 does she believe

2067
01:38:52,780 --> 01:38:50,960
it was taken there I'm not I don't know

2068
01:38:55,890 --> 01:38:52,790
the exact page number he's talking about

2069
01:39:02,080 --> 01:38:55,900
but there's certainly and there it is

2070
01:39:04,420 --> 01:39:02,090
that I write in the book that I maintain

2071
01:39:09,580 --> 01:39:04,430
to this day being the narrative I was

2072
01:39:12,910 --> 01:39:09,590
told my sources my main source that's

2073
01:39:15,600 --> 01:39:12,920
kind of a big you know that that has

2074
01:39:17,550 --> 01:39:15,610
caused so much interest in that book an

2075
01:39:22,209 --> 01:39:17,560
engineer from EG&G

2076
01:39:23,830 --> 01:39:22,219
he has now died but he and I remained

2077
01:39:25,689 --> 01:39:23,840
friendly for several years after the

2078
01:39:32,500 --> 01:39:25,699
book published and he stuck with our

2079
01:39:36,340 --> 01:39:32,510
story so absolutely I believe that that

2080
01:39:38,439 --> 01:39:36,350
story stands as its own narrative was it

2081
01:39:40,810 --> 01:39:38,449
I don't mean to be vague but you know

2082
01:39:42,790 --> 01:39:40,820
that's so controversial like what I

2083
01:39:45,729 --> 01:39:42,800
wrote in the last few pages of the book

2084
01:39:53,320 --> 01:39:45,739
and it's I spoke a little bit more about

2085
01:39:56,979 --> 01:39:53,330
it on Joe Rogan and you know it exists

2086
01:39:59,080 --> 01:39:56,989
exactly as I laid it down I have the

2087
01:40:04,530 --> 01:39:59,090
book here and I'm trying to think

2088
01:40:10,209 --> 01:40:04,540
exactly was was that the part was that a

2089
01:40:11,350 --> 01:40:10,219
Nazi wreckage or yes right right right I

2090
01:40:14,290 --> 01:40:11,360
don't want to give away the book either

2091
01:40:17,920 --> 01:40:14,300
but I'm just trying to refresh my memory

2092
01:40:22,510 --> 01:40:17,930
from reading it that that possibly was

2093
01:40:24,520 --> 01:40:22,520
the cover-up right yes okay and again

2094
01:40:28,689 --> 01:40:24,530
there are so many different competing

2095
01:40:31,479 --> 01:40:28,699
narratives about Roswell about area 51

2096
01:40:33,970 --> 01:40:31,489
how they lit up how the Nazis are

2097
01:40:35,500 --> 01:40:33,980
involved how Stalin is involved whether

2098
01:40:37,840 --> 01:40:35,510
it's a black propaganda operation

2099
01:40:42,010 --> 01:40:37,850
whether it was a hoax

2100
01:40:44,470 --> 01:40:42,020
and you know the different narratives

2101
01:40:47,860 --> 01:40:44,480
have been laid down and have their own

2102
01:40:51,280 --> 01:40:47,870
origin points and go go go where they go

2103
01:40:53,530 --> 01:40:51,290
and mine is certainly one of those I

2104
01:40:55,689 --> 01:40:53,540
make it really clear in that book where

2105
01:40:59,140 --> 01:40:55,699
I write in the third person very

2106
01:41:02,709 --> 01:40:59,150
objectively everybody is named and

2107
01:41:05,260 --> 01:41:02,719
sourced all of my sources you know and

2108
01:41:07,180 --> 01:41:05,270
then I have one source who was anonymous

2109
01:41:11,500 --> 01:41:07,190
and that was because of the sensitivity

2110
01:41:13,899 --> 01:41:11,510
of the situation because but that's the

2111
01:41:19,240 --> 01:41:13,909
individual who maintained his story

2112
01:41:21,100 --> 01:41:19,250
after the book was published and it's

2113
01:41:24,580 --> 01:41:21,110
really interesting to think about and

2114
01:41:28,630 --> 01:41:24,590
it's it's you know I wonder mindful of

2115
01:41:30,640 --> 01:41:28,640
history as I am and mindful that the

2116
01:41:32,350 --> 01:41:30,650
truth always does get revealed I really

2117
01:41:35,830 --> 01:41:32,360
believe that you know when we don't know

2118
01:41:39,189 --> 01:41:35,840
but I think it's I think it's it also

2119
01:41:41,530 --> 01:41:39,199
adds to why so many people are

2120
01:41:45,399 --> 01:41:41,540
fascinated by area 51 and that story is

2121
01:41:49,899 --> 01:41:45,409
nowhere near resolved no no no and we

2122
01:41:53,229 --> 01:41:49,909
may never find out but about two months

2123
01:41:55,270 --> 01:41:53,239
ago a set of documents that you're

2124
01:41:59,169 --> 01:41:55,280
probably not aware of maybe you are it's

2125
01:42:03,000 --> 01:41:59,179
called the Wilson Admiral Wilson Eric

2126
01:42:06,939 --> 01:42:03,010
Davis documents were leaked onto the net

2127
01:42:08,620 --> 01:42:06,949
and have have since been confirmed to be

2128
01:42:12,669 --> 01:42:08,630
authentic these aren't government

2129
01:42:14,939 --> 01:42:12,679
documents these are documents and

2130
01:42:17,979 --> 01:42:14,949
transcriptions of a conversation between

2131
01:42:21,209 --> 01:42:17,989
Admiral Wilson and dr. Eric Davis behind

2132
01:42:24,370 --> 01:42:21,219
the EG&G building at McCarran Airport

2133
01:42:26,140 --> 01:42:24,380
but and I'll send you the documents if

2134
01:42:30,189 --> 01:42:26,150
if you haven't seen them I'll send them

2135
01:42:32,649 --> 01:42:30,199
to you a fascinating read but on and the

2136
01:42:37,229 --> 01:42:32,659
back of the document I think it's page

2137
01:42:41,350 --> 01:42:37,239
15 or page 14 it's a 15 page document

2138
01:42:43,270 --> 01:42:41,360
he says Admiral Wilson says that he was

2139
01:42:48,540 --> 01:42:43,280
told by somebody else that and this is

2140
01:42:51,780 --> 01:42:48,550
the quote lanta crash UFOs are real

2141
01:42:54,330 --> 01:42:51,790
and landed saucers very interesting

2142
01:42:58,700 --> 01:42:54,340
statement right crashed and landed

2143
01:43:01,860 --> 01:42:58,710
saucers but alien abductions are not

2144
01:43:05,040 --> 01:43:01,870
right and that's that's the line in this

2145
01:43:07,080 --> 01:43:05,050
document and you know everybody's

2146
01:43:09,330 --> 01:43:07,090
wondering what he's referring to crashed

2147
01:43:11,670 --> 01:43:09,340
and landed saucers well that's an

2148
01:43:14,690 --> 01:43:11,680
interesting statement and then to follow

2149
01:43:18,240 --> 01:43:14,700
that up with alien abductions are not is

2150
01:43:20,430 --> 01:43:18,250
is fascinating and and where are these

2151
01:43:24,120 --> 01:43:20,440
crashed and landed saucers are they at

2152
01:43:26,760 --> 01:43:24,130
area 51 are they at wright-patt but but

2153
01:43:29,610 --> 01:43:26,770
why such a general statement confirming

2154
01:43:32,780 --> 01:43:29,620
one side of the question but totally

2155
01:43:36,690 --> 01:43:32,790
pooh-poohing the other the other side

2156
01:43:38,610 --> 01:43:36,700
have you seen the documents I know I I

2157
01:43:42,210 --> 01:43:38,620
haven't I don't know I mean are you

2158
01:43:44,130 --> 01:43:42,220
talking i i'm interested you know

2159
01:43:50,010 --> 01:43:44,140
everyone has their horse in the race as

2160
01:43:53,250 --> 01:43:50,020
i like to say because there is you know

2161
01:43:58,170 --> 01:43:53,260
people become wedded to a certain story

2162
01:43:59,520 --> 01:43:58,180
and i get it I understand that but I

2163
01:44:01,140 --> 01:43:59,530
don't know anything I can't speak to

2164
01:44:03,870 --> 01:44:01,150
that cuz I haven't read that document I

2165
01:44:05,550 --> 01:44:03,880
will get it to you I will email it to

2166
01:44:10,890 --> 01:44:05,560
you right after the show tonight's very

2167
01:44:13,410 --> 01:44:10,900
fascinating read and it gets into all of

2168
01:44:15,660 --> 01:44:13,420
the aspects of it too as well which is

2169
01:44:18,180 --> 01:44:15,670
research and backwards engineering

2170
01:44:21,510 --> 01:44:18,190
doesn't mention Lazar or anything like

2171
01:44:23,550 --> 01:44:21,520
that these are all official government

2172
01:44:27,060 --> 01:44:23,560
types and a meeting that they had at the

2173
01:44:30,510 --> 01:44:27,070
Pentagon in 1997 April of 1997 which is

2174
01:44:32,100 --> 01:44:30,520
the subject of these 15 pages it's a

2175
01:44:34,770 --> 01:44:32,110
fascinating read and I will get it to

2176
01:44:37,160 --> 01:44:34,780
you so what's next for you Annie before

2177
01:44:40,290 --> 01:44:37,170
we say goodnight what's the next book oh

2178
01:44:42,600 --> 01:44:40,300
you know I always hold that close to the

2179
01:44:45,710 --> 01:44:42,610
vest but you can be sure I'm working on

2180
01:44:47,940 --> 01:44:45,720
something because I love investigating

2181
01:44:50,970 --> 01:44:47,950
fascinating government secrets that have

2182
01:44:55,260 --> 01:44:50,980
to do with national security okay can I

2183
01:44:57,360 --> 01:44:55,270
tell everybody your text he texted me

2184
01:45:02,970 --> 01:44:57,370
last week or no two weeks ago she goes

2185
01:45:07,920 --> 01:45:06,510
man where is she and what is she doing

2186
01:45:09,600 --> 01:45:07,930
well I can't wait for the next book

2187
01:45:12,200 --> 01:45:09,610
Annie thank you so much for taking the

2188
01:45:14,130 --> 01:45:12,210
time and be safe out there

2189
01:45:15,270 --> 01:45:14,140
always a pleasure being on your show

2190
01:45:17,700 --> 01:45:15,280
Thank You Annie

2191
01:45:21,270 --> 01:45:17,710
good night thank you I want to thank

2192
01:45:23,040 --> 01:45:21,280
Andy Jacobson for coming in the book is

2193
01:45:26,300 --> 01:45:23,050
surprised kill banished the secret

2194
01:45:29,670 --> 01:45:26,310
history of CIA paramilitary armies

2195
01:45:32,520 --> 01:45:29,680
operators and assassins go to Annie

2196
01:45:35,490 --> 01:45:32,530
Jacobson comm you can also go straight

2197
01:45:37,530 --> 01:45:35,500
to Amazon paid to Black's executive

2198
01:45:39,060 --> 01:45:37,540
producers ritika Maria on shows produced

2199
01:45:41,640 --> 01:45:39,070
by Hill J Palmer Nate

2200
01:45:43,950 --> 01:45:41,650
Dennis about an ounce of sour Steve

2201
01:45:46,980 --> 01:45:43,960
harder gene veto a marked eco bar what

2202
01:45:51,180 --> 01:45:46,990
master drew the geek music doug aldrich

2203
01:45:52,710 --> 01:45:51,190
intro space boy space boy music calm

2204
01:45:58,740 --> 01:45:52,720
fade to black is produced by kjsurya

2205
01:46:01,080 --> 01:45:58,750
productions kedi ra the planet does

2206
01:46:03,120 --> 01:46:01,090
podcast on the copyright of 2019 by fade

2207
01:46:05,100 --> 01:46:03,130
to black - the game changer network it

2208
01:46:06,630 --> 01:46:05,110
cannot be rebroadcast download a copy

2209
01:46:08,850 --> 01:46:06,640
there we used anywhere in the known

2210
01:46:10,920 --> 01:46:08,860
universe without written permission from

2211
01:46:12,750 --> 01:46:10,930
fade to black of the GameChanger network

2212
01:46:15,480 --> 01:46:12,760
I'm your host Jimmy church until

2213
01:46:20,070 --> 01:46:15,490
tomorrow night dr. Kenneth James right

2214
01:46:21,550 --> 01:46:20,080
here I want everybody to be safe Gobekli

2215
01:46:33,380 --> 01:46:21,560
Tepe